Post Resurection for the bored Fundies

by unclebruce 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • unclebruce

    Geez Rex,

    Hi Unc, You still 'just don't get it', regarding similiar claims and beliefs by pagan religions. The Christian faith has so much more evidence than the rest and it's claims are backed up both secular and by the apostles giving their livelihood, reputations and very lives for this miracle that you scoff at!
    What evidence? As for giving up thier lifeblood, If it's numbers that impress you we can argue well into the night about the fanatasism of the Aztecs vs the Zulus, the Hindus vs the Moslems, the Catholics vs the Protestants, the Atheistic forces of Communism vs the ancient religions of Russia and China.

    Your view of early christianity is actually less respectful than mine. The Jew Jesus would be horrified if he retured to see what American Fundamentalists are doing in his name. (I'm sure you guy's would crucify him a new with all his talk of love and forgiveness .. then again, the evedence is in that all that was Paulian myth making too)

    Also, the fact that pagan religions have valid similarities to Christianity enhances the idea that there was at one time, one God worship from which all other worship originated.
    This sentence is evidence that fundy's will stoop to nothing to try and link thier laterday belief system with the most ancient on the planet, a tactic often employed by the Brooklyn Bible scholars. Here's a little story:

    Last year I took my JW father-in-law to visit a sacred Aboriginal site near where I live. It is a place of great natural beauty a few miles further into the forest from me with a spring fed stream flowing into a forest oasis. The National Parks and Wildlife service have just upgraded the facilities for day visiters (some days two or three carloads of tourists come!!! lol .. such is the smallness of our tourist numbers)

    Alan got very excited at seeing plaques retelling the local aboriginal creation myths. These in fact have very little in common with Christian and Jewish ones and out date them by 40,000 years+ but the word 'creation' is enough to jingle the mind-control embelished brain cells into excited life. It'd be funny if it were'nt so pathetic.

    Zoaraster and the Magi of Persia gleaned much from being exposed to Daniel and the hebrews at Babylon. The Magi (who were not 'magicians' but an elite, 'King making groups of wise men') even tracked down the Christ child by His second year of life.
    Ah the magi. My sister, the astrolgy witch would have a field day with you on that. The Bible and Torah (tarot?) read from
    her perspective is one big astrology manual from the "I Am" Most High Jethro to Warlock Moses with his Zodiac breastplate.

    Of course, you much champion the typical critisisms because it allows you to believe you are correct in your own life course and world view.
    What life course? You were the worldly witness, what have I ever done to be guilty about? I'm the very model of an honorary citizen, faithful husband of one wife, kind to animals and passing strangers, helper of widows and orphans and all that. Fair Dinkum Rex that's pathetic. When I do something that I need to justify to God or anyone else I'll let ya know. lol

    It could just be that I like my history learning as free of religious pre-consception as is possible for us wayward humans.


  • You Know
    You Know

    Jesus' death and resurrection did not just occur in history as if an after thought. Nor could it have possibly been the contrivance of men living after the fact. The event was situated within the context and the legal and prophetic framework of the Jewish nation. In other words, the groundwork for the Messiah was laid centuries before his arrival, so that only one man could fill the role cast in Scripture long before Messiah’s birth.

    For example, after Jesus was resurrected it is recorded at Luke 24:25 where he rebuked his disbelieving disciples, again, saying: “O senseless ones and slow of heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures. No other messiah or god could possibly duplicate the criteria that God himself established to identify the true One.

    Actually, the death and resurrection of Jehovah’s Messiah was part of the fulfillment of the very first prophecy that God ever issued, which is recorded at Genesis 3:15. The foretold wounding of the seed of the woman, and his subsequent yet-to-occur crushing of the serpent, could only be accomplished if the seed of the woman was recovered from his heel wound. The very fact that the serpent's head is to be crushed by the same heel that was bruised by the serpent would seem to indicate that some sort of miraculous recovery was involved that allowed the woman's seed to avenge himself upon the serpent. So, the foretold death and resurrection of Jehovah's Messiah was part of religious thought from before the world was established outside of the Garden of Eden. Since the prophecy directly involved the soon-to-be-developing seed of the serpent, that being the invisible demonic forces aligned with the Devil, they would naturally be intrigued by Jehovah's original Edenic enigmatic expression concerning their fate as well as the identity of the one with whom they were at enmity.

    We could say then, that, the mystery of the seed was itself the seed of mystery religion, which was spawned by the demons. Since it would take many hundreds of years before Jehovah would fully divulge the sacred secret of his Christ, the demons would take advantage of the ambiguity to spin their own version. If the Devil is anything, he is a mimic, and given the fact that the demons were demigods that had themselves come down long before Christ, and who suffered a humiliating retreat back into the invisible realm during the global deluge, it is logical that they would cast themselves as the suffering seed of the woman in later mythologies that they would inspire. The history and development of primitive religious thought can only be understood in light of that fact.

    So, it is not surprising that the earliest beginnings of false religion revolve around variations on the theme of a dying and resurrected savior. Thus, that thought is interwoven into the fabric of demon religion. The Bible even reveals that some of the Israelites were seduced by the mythological adaptation of the Genesis prophecy. Ezekiel 8:14 records a vision in which Ezekiel saw women “weeping over the god Tammuz,” who died a violent death and apparently was memorialized each springtime when the natural cycle heralded his “resurrection.”

    So while the mythological counterfeits have a basis in reality, only Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection could fit all the criteria laid down in the Law and prophets, as well as the Psalms. By that means then Jehovah made it possible to distinguish the real Messiah from the phonies.

    As far as your comments that none of the writers other than Paul referred to the resurrection, that simply is not true. All the Christian writers made reference to the resurrected Jesus. Peter’s 1st letter refers directly to the resurrection of Christ, where it writes at 1:21: “God…the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory…” Also, in the 3rd chapter he wrote about Christ being made alive in the spirit after his death and verse 22 says: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”

    Furthermore, Revelation has the resurrected Jesus delivering a message to his 7 congregations and referring to himself as one who is very much alive. James refers to the presence of Jesus saying: “Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the presence of the Lord.” Jesus’ return or presence could only make sense if they believed in his previous death and resurrection. And lastly, Jude refers to Jesus as being a mediator and Lord through whom approach to God is possible, which of course would only be possible if Jesus were alive in God’s presence. / You Know

  • You Know
    You Know


  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Sorry, I don't know how to hightlight a quote
    YK, you said
    So, the foretold death and resurrection of Jehovah's Messiah was part of religious thought from before the world was established outside of the Garden of Eden. Since the prophecy directly involved the soon-to-be-developing seed of the serpent, that being the invisible demonic forces aligned with the Devil, they would naturally be intrigued ...

    I'm a little confused. This sounds like Everything was already fixed and prophesized from the beginning!
    Is this true?

  • Hmmm


    Enjoyable and informative post. I take back almost every bad thing I ever said about you.


  • You Know
    You Know

    WILL Power:

    I'm a little confused. This sounds like Everything was already fixed and prophesized from the beginning! Is this true?

    In a broad sense everything was foretold from the beginning. The day that Adam and Eve came under the Devil's lordship Jehovah foretold his remedy for the otherwise impossible situation for the world; namely, that a seed would arrive, who would suffer at the hands of the serpent, but that the seed would ultimately destroy the Devil. That's why God is spoken of as telling from the beginning the finale, because the execution of the Devil will mark the complete end of the evil that has characterized life in this system.

    In case you doubt that Genesis 3:15 had reference to the death of Christ, Revelation 13:8 says: "...the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world." The expression "slaughtered from the founding of the world" has reference to the fact that it became Jehovah's will to provide Jesus as a ransom sacrifice from the very moment that Adam sinned. That prophecy was issued by God before Adam and Eve had any children. So, since God had already sentenced our first parents to death, the only way that the world could be produced or founded, is if Adam and Eve had children after they had been condemned. That is to say, they founded the world when they produced offspring. But, before that took place God had already determined in his mind to make provisions for a savior.

    However, just because God stated in cryptic language what the future solution to the problem confronting humankind would be, it was not really understood by anyone just exactly what God had in mind. That's what allowed the demon seed to work their mischief upon the world. Not until the promised seed of the women actually arrived was it possible to fully understand the prophecies that had previously been written. Hence, as in the scripture priviously cited where Jesus opened up the Scriptures to the disciples and interpreted them for the benefit of his disciples. That's why Paul wrote what he did at Colossians 1:26, saying: "the sacred secret that was hidden from past generations. But now has been manifest to his holy ones."

    As time went on, Jehovah gave more and more details concerning his promised seed. For example, when Abraham was told to offer up his only son Issac, Jehovah was giving his servants a hint that the Messiah would actually be an only son of Jehovah's. Years later Paul explained the drama in those terms. Apparently, even the demons understood the prophetic significance of Abraham's attempt to sacrifice Issac, because they inspired those under their influence to similarly institute the horrific and unnatural practice of child sacrifice, which would appear to be the form of mockery to belittle the idea of Jehovah sacrificing his only son centuries before it even took place. Interestingly, child sacrifice was institutionalized by the religious systems of Cannan that existed in the very land where Abraham and Issac originally carried out the affair long before the Israelites inherited the land. So that indicates how the demonic enemy seizes upon certain features of the sacred secret in order to pervert and trivialize Jehovah's grand purpose in connection with his dear son. / You Know

  • You Know
    You Know

    Dear Uncle Bruce,

    Since I have answered your question, will you answer one of mine? In view of the obvious falsity of your claim that no other Bible writers besides Paul mentioned anything about Jesus' resurrection and return to heaven, my question is: Are you really that ignorant or were you deliberately telling a lie? Which is it? / You Know

  • unclebruce

    G'day YouKnow,

    I appreciate your responce and will get back to it in detail. I am in transit right now and will be meeting up with my bibles in several days time. I've waited a year for your input on this please wait a week or two for my response.

    I wrote that particular 'question for christians' quite a while back so i'll blow the dust of the writings of Peter, James, John and Jude and get back to you. Do they speak of seeing Jesus personally or meeting with him post resurection? I would have thought they'd have a donkey load of information to share if they had.

    catch you in a while, never shy, unclebruce

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    "Jehovah's grand purpose"
    Isn't this the whole reason for becoming a witness dedicated to the organization in brooklyn?
    The grand purpose was to have the garden of eden upon the whole earth forever and they are the ones that offer this? (Psalm 37:29 and that 1 line in Peter)

    Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? Was the entire history of mankind devised the instant the original sin was committed? Sort of plan B scenario?

  • cellomould

    You Know,

    You mention 'mythological counterfeits' which may or may not be similar to biblical accounts.

    What is your basis for trusting the bible over other accounts?

    The bible is clearly based on oral tradition like all the others.

    Take as an example the serpent of Genesis (chapter 3? I forget right now). Was this serpent really Satan the Devil?

    Read the Hebrew scriptures, and you will find little mention of an antithesis to God. (Perhaps in Job chapter 1. But this is suspect also as an interpolation. Notice that Satan is only mentioned in that first chapter!) The ancient Israelites attributed everything good, as well as everything bad, to GOD.

    The serpent, if you read Genesis carefully, was just a serpent. God said 'crawl on your belly and eat dust'. He was NOT talking to an angelic creature later to be named Satan. He was talking to a snake believed to have legs before God's punishment. (Someone referred to this in a thread recently. Apparently even in the WT they depicted a snake with legs in the garden of eden.)

    You believe Paul's words that Satan was 'the original serpent'? That comment was necessary to separate the oral tradition of the 1st century from the ancient, more mythical, oral tradition. At some point in history, it became intolerable to have a God that performed evil works or harmed people. (Read about Zarastrutha and Persian philosophy)

    In addition, the bible is now being disseminated because of oral tradition. Would you independently come to the conclusion that the bible was the work of a Supreme God, not having parents or religion to impress that upon you?

    Be honest.


    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

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