The MOST IMPORTANT Topic you will ever read!

by Terry 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Terry

  In what way would a previously unbiased observer determine which of the scriptures was indeed inspired by God? I don't know. I think, however, that he wouldn't be able to use the revealed words themselves, because that would be circular reasoning.

  And then you have the fact that all four of the revealed words of God has been found to have inconsistencies.

  I think it's best if we don't stick dogmatically to any of them.

  Indeed! It is SO EASY to shut people up from criticising you when you invent a crackpot religion by simply CLAIMING INSPIRATION FROM GOD!

  Watch the TV preachers who have "received a word" from the Lord!

  How do you refute somebody's "word from the Lord"?

  An honest person would say, "I've got this crackpot idea I want to foist off on you..."

  But, hey.....that's not going to happen.
• 

  Terry

  Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture, by Bart Ehrman 1-10

  Misquuoting Jesus is a textual criticism of Biblical manuscript tampering by Bart Ehrman, Professor or Religious Studies of the University of ...
• 

  moshe

  Nice synopsis Terry. Of Course, this story would stampede the horses and that is why mainstream religion is not likely to look at these arguments anytime soon. In 1996 I read the book Five Gospels-what did Jesus say, by the Jesus Seminar and that was the first book that explained what that little voice of doubt had been telling my subconscious all along.
• 

  WTWizard

  Even in the best case, if you lack written notes, you are going to have a hard time remembering something after 40 or more years. You could be certain you have it right when you have it wrong, and nothing to verify it. Then, once it is written, others think it is accurate--and add even more error to it. This will corrupt the Bible right at the source, even before the early Catholic church gets to lay a finger on it.

  Now, if you throw in a high ranking religious figure that errantly or intentionally distorts Jesus' words, you are all but certain to have corruption. The one person that remembers the actual events is going to be voted out by this high ranking figure--while the "peer reviewed" version is going to contain the error. With nothing written to verify anything, they go by the bad version. The bad version gets written down, and then you have a bad religion where Jesus originally set out to do exactly what Satan originally set out to do (which is to set mankind free from God).

  This explains why Paul's accounts set out a bunch of rules. Jesus didn't favor rules. But, when Paul (the prominent figure) takes Jesus' writings literally and creates rules out of it, you have those rules in those books. Compare: How many rules do you find in the Gospels? Now, how many do you find in the books from Romans through Revelation? Remember, most of the rules that did appear in the Gospels were made 40 years after Jesus spoke--and may not have even been part of the original talk! And, with nothing recorded as these talks were actually made, no one can verify it.
• 

  oldflame

  Well actually we know for proof positive that the scriptures now found in as the Bible had many other books along with those we now know as the Holy Bible. And it was the catholics who decided what books made it and which ones did not.

  The other books tell some very different stories than the ones we read. Alsso I will add is have you ever played the game where a person tells a story to the person next to them and then it repeats around the circle till it comes back to the person who originally told it ? 99 % of the time the story comes back totally opposite of what was told.

  So yes I believe that man has more than likely has been stepped on and not only man but religion as well. I have always said this 'Religion was created by man, Faith was created by the Holy Spirit " And I do not believe that I have to go to church in order to gain Gods promise, what I do believe is that I have to love others as myself and Love my God with everything I got.
• 

  tec

  And I do not believe that I have to go to church in order to gain Gods promise, what I do believe is that I have to love others as myself and Love my God with everything I got.

  Agreed! All else flows naturally from these. And one thing I learned from the WT is that I cannot trust my faith to an organization. I can only trust my faith to Christ.

  Tammy
• 

  awildflower

  DO you put the same "critical eye" on all other forms of historical writing?

  Christians don't with the Bible. Do YOU PSacramento, give "other forms of historical writing" the same latitude as you do the Bible? The same chance at authenticity as you do the Bible? The same believability as you do the Bible? Do you even read other forms of historical writings? I'm just curious because "Christians" can be so hypocritical in this area.
• 

  Terry

  It takes awhile for these things to penetrate and settle in.

  You have to carry them around in your head and think about them, sort them, reframe all your 'givens' and shuffle the deck.

  1.There was a Jesus

  2.He did some amazing things and inspired followers who didn't know what to make of him.

  3.He gave specific instruction which weren't clearly understood.

  4.When he was put to death there was a huge shakeup

  5.Many claimed to see him and talk to him AFTER he died.

  6.Everybody connected with his teaching clearly believed he would return and end the Roman rule with a Messianic one.

  7.The first generation of believers kept expecting the apocalyptic end which Jesus had spoken of.

  8. Roman armies brought an apocalypse to Judaism in the same way 1914 brought WWI instead of Armageddon.

  9.All the True Believers had to do a RE-think about what these things meant. Clearly they had got it wrong in some significant way.

  10. Writings appeared, stories were circulated, issues were discussed and reshuffled. Groups began to form around new interpretations.

  This is when the distortions mixed thoroughly with whatever true stories there were.

  Perhaps the True stories were too mundane and puzzling or outrageous to compete with the false stories.

  What we have today is the result of the chaos and the arguments and the debates.
• 

  PSacramento

  Christians don't with the Bible. Do YOU PSacramento, give "other forms of historical writing" the same latitude as you do the Bible? The same chance at authenticity as you do the Bible? The same believability as you do the Bible? Do you even read other forms of historical writings? I'm just curious because "Christians" can be so hypocritical in this area.

  While it may not seem that way at times, I am far more critical of the Bible than Terry is :)

  I am just not willing to dismiss what was written as Terry is, that's all.

  I am a student of the Bible, as I am of the Word Of God, as I am of history, have been a huge fan of history since I was a kid.

  I just understand the inherent bias that so many people have towrds the bible, just like I understand the bias some people have FOR the bible.

  None of these arguments against the Bibel or Jesus are new, they pop up every so often and there is a reason for that, because there are question that people want answered and they are not satisfied with the answers.

  I also realize that I have an opinion and that is exactly whatit is, my opinion and you will not see me stated aid opinion with absolut authority, why?

  Because I don't know everything and I am humble enough to admit to myself that I may be wrong, so I keep an open mind.

  I am also not scarred,or at least THAT scarred, by any religion to be closed minded.

  I am not trying to be critical, I am simply stating what I feel.
• 

  Terry

  While it may not seem that way at times, I am far more critical of the Bible than Terry is :)

  I am just not willing to dismiss what was written as Terry is, that's all.

  I am a student of the Bible, as I am of the Word Of God, as I am of history, have been a huge fan of history since I was a kid.

  Destructive Social Impact for centuries and centuries as a result of Bible bias is what we ought to be discussing.

  1.How are/were women to be treated?

  2.How are/were gays to be treated?

  3.How important/unimportant is ritual observance?

  4.Is life in the here and now important at all? How important?

  5.Should we really LOVE/hate enemies?

  6.Were Jews persecuted throughout the millennia for good reason or on trumped up charges?

  7.Is there such a thing as Holy war?

  These things have been INTERPRETED based on the WORDS in scripture which AREN'T GOD'S ACTUAL WORDS but are the words of translators who substituted their own for the mind of God in so many instances. (The original and actual words are lost).

  What part of Scripture is pure prejudice? What part is Holy?

  Who gets to decide?

  I'm not a woman or a gay person living in the 1950's but I am old enough to remember what awful treatment both of them got as a result

  of BIBLE interpretations.

  If you are free, white, over 21, heterosexual and male these issues may not seem important at all.

  But, many people in this world aren't.

  The farther back in history you go the worse people have been treated by the simple-minded PREJUDICE parading as God's word!