we were never s'pose to die????

Julie

Greetings to all,

Out of the many things from the bible I wonder about there was one I thought I would share with you all and see if you may have any interesting insights on this issue.

According to the bible man was suppose to live forever, no sickness, easy childbirth for women, just your basic paradise, right?

So ok, we all know that because that wretched Eve screwed it up for all of us and everything we now have suffering and death.

My problem with all of this is this: What if all the people who had ever lived had never died? How many of us would there be on the planet? How could we all fit on the planet? How could this planet have not be totally drained of all natural resources if the billions who have died in the past existed with all of us billions who now live?

This has got to be one of the most absurd ideas in the bible. I would have to put it second to the assertion the bible makes that many animals became carnivores *after* the "global flood" when there was supposedly only two of each species in existence. But that of course is another post.

I am hoping all you Christians out there are able to shed some light on this We-were-never-suppose-to-die issue for me as I cannot understand how it could have been anything but a dismal failure. My only request is no cutting and pasting any more than 50 pages of some book on the issue.

Thanks and regards to all,
Julie

teenyuck

Julie,

I brought this up to my mother when I was young. Her typical JW response-"Jehovah would take care of all of us."

Your question is logical. How. That is where the bible falls short. Logic. There is very little in the book. That is why, I personally, do not believe it. To me it is fables; stories that got passed down and passed down. As each telling changes a little, history changes.

"I used to be Snow White, then I drifted." Mae West

Hmmm

The Aid book way back when gave numbers on this. I have no idea how accurate they are, but I'll try to summarize: An estimated X billion people have lived in the course of human history. Take the total square acreage of the world, divide by X billion people, and it gives something like half an acre for every man, woman, and child on earth. I believe the estimate even subtracted some land for farming, etc, but allowed for deserts and other inhospitable land to be reclaimed in a Paradise Earth under God's Righteous Kingdom.

If it's true, I'll take my half acre in downtown Manhattan, or maybe downtown Tokyo. It would have to be worth a pretty penny. Then I'd sell it and buy some binoculars and a few hundred acres next to a resurrection nexus (where all those lovely nekkid resurrectees will be coming back).

Hmmm

drahcir yarrum

Julie:

I tend to look at this simply from "what is" with the rest of life on earth. Everything, cell, protozoa, aomeba, fish, fowl, reptile, mammal and so on has a life cycle. There isn't a single life form on earth that beats the system. Only accepting the WTS unscientific, heretical view of scripture could one assume that man was designed to live forever.

The WTS mythology, while pleasant to consider is still just mythology.

"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son." Dean Vernon Wormer, Faber College

freeman

Hi Julie,
I have heard it said in a talk that in the new system, reproduction was to be like a water spigot; when the earth was full, the spigot would be closed. Nice explanation I guess, no scriptural support at all, but hey.

As far as living forever and the so-called fall from perfection; did you ever wonder what the animals did to cause their own imperfection? They seem to die from all the same aliments that we do. My black lab is getting gray hair under her chin, just like me. And she will die of old age just like me. Which one of her ancestors sinned? Just some things for fundies to think about.

Freeman

Mum

Hmmm,

I remember a public talk from many years ago about how each person could have a half acre and so on. Since I had no critical thinking skills at the time, it did not occur to me that humans are not the only species to occupy this planet. Where would wild animals roam? How could we survive on a planet without the rainforest and plenty of plant life to sustain the environment? I'm sure there are many other obstacles as well to dividing the earth among humans and forgetting every other living thing except, perhaps, fish.

Seize the day, and put the least possible trust in tomorrow. - Horace

I have learned to live each day as it comes and not to borrow trouble by dreading tomorrow. - Dorothy Dix

Mindchild

Julie,

On top of the population issues you raised, there is so much biological evidence that death is programmed into us that it is just overwhelming. Did you know for instance that as we grow older we activate different sets of genes from our DNA. The expression of these genes is age dependent. The genes that made you a baby, a teenager, and so on are not the same. So, the genes that are expressed when you are 70 years old are different genes entirely. This shows that aging is predeterministic.

Then you can also do something really interesting yourself. You can look up the life-span of different animals and you will find that there is a clear relationship from a humming-bird to an elephant. What you see is that body weight and heartbeats are related to longevity. So, while a humming bird has a small body and a high heart rate, the relationship is similar to the elephant with a large body and slow heart rate...the number of heartbeats/body weight=lifespan. After you see this graphed out you find really only two exceptions on the scale. One is a small creature that sleeps most of it's life and the other is man. If you take away the soft life we have from civilization, and the deliberate attempts to keep ourselves alive through medicine...we fit right in the curve perfectly. In fact, without all the props...we would have an average lifespan of about 40 years or less.

Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Skipper

aChristian

Julie,

You wrote: According to the bible man was suppose to live forever, no sickness, easy childbirth for women, just your basic paradise, right?

Wrong. Your concerns are only valid if we understand the Bible to teach that God intended for the human race to live forever on earth. This is JW theology, but is it really a teaching supported by the Bible? No, it is not. The fact of the matter is that the Bible clearly teaches that God created the human race mortal. God created us to die.

The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to continue to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life."

Genesis indicates that when God prevented Adam and Eve from eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us. Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life." I believe that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ.

God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

You wrote: This has got to be one of the most absurd ideas in the bible. I would have to put it second to the assertion the bible makes that many animals became carnivores *after* the "global flood" when there was supposedly only two of each species in existence. But that of course is another post.

It is also a topic which has recently been discussed at great length in another thread, in which I maintain that the Bible makes no such assertions. That discussion can be found here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17590&site=3

Skeptic

Hi, Julie,
Others have commented on the living-forever issue.

Even as a dyed-in-the-wool JW, I never accepted the all animals were herbavores teaching....although I never realized what you`saw...becoming carnovores when there were only a few of each would wipe out most species. Kind of defeats the purpose of putting them in the ark in the first place, eh?

I just could not concieve of God redesigning all those animals teeth, for no apparent purpose. And if we throw in the "god can do anything" speech, well the ideas of miracles just gets too convenient for a while. Something like the concept of Satan. Too catch-all.

Richard

RunningMan

Freeman: You wonder what sin your dog's ancestor's committed
to earn the same fate as you.

I would like to speculate on that. I also have a dog. He occasionally
pees on the floor (he is still a puppy), and he appears to be a voracious
licker of himself. He obviously covets our supper. God knows what
other sins he is committing that I don't even know about.

If you ask me, animals are huge sinners and deserve the fate that God
has prescribed for them.

This reminds me of a "Far Side" cartoon. Two men are sitting in the
waiting room of Hell, and there is a dog sitting at their feet. One man
says to the other "I don't know what he did, I always thought he was
just a dog."

we were never s'pose to die????

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