Who do you think this is talking about?

awildflower

"This day has given the earth an entirely new aspect. The world would have gone to destruction had there not streamed forth from him who is now born a common blessing. Rightly does he judge who recognizes in this birthday the beginning of life; now is that time ended when men pitied themselves for being born. From no other day does the individual or the community receive such benefit as from this natal day, full of blessing to all. The Providence which rules over all has filled this man with such gifts for the salvation of the world as designate him as savior for us and for the coming generations; of wars he will make end, and establish all things worthily. By his appearing are the hopes of our forefathers fulfilled; not only has he surpassed the good deeds of earlier times, but it is impossible that one greater than he can ever appear. The brithday of God has brought to the world glad tidings that are bound up in him. From his birthday a new era begins."

Jesus? NO. This is not a Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus..............It is in honor of Augustus.

This is from a piece from an article I read about the book The Jesus Mysteries. It blew my mind about the origins of Christianity. I know many people here have already been down this "rabbit hole" and I was feeling this, but couldn't put it into words until I read the article. Here's the link. I've posted it before but here it is again: www.pufoin.com/pufoin_perspective/jesus_mysteries.php

Sorry Christians, but you should know the history of your beliefs.

tec

Sorry Awildflower, but you should know that the comparisons made between Jesus and other 'pagan saviors' stretch the facts at best, and are utterly false at worst. I don't remember the names of all these pagan gods, but an atheist friend found something on the Zeitgeist website that 'proved that he was right all along and Christianity was just a knock-off of pagan religions,' I looked them up to satisfy myself. (I also looked up the sources of the material and authors making these comparisons )

One of the biggest common thread of comparison was the December 25th birthdate. Now just because JW's are wrong about a lot doesn't mean they were wrong about everything. Jesus was not born on December 25th. You don't have to dig very deep to find that out, so I had to wonder about the accuracy and bias in the rest of the comparisons, and the nature of the person who would put something blatantly false into his/her info in order to strengthen what must have been a weak case.

But I continued to search anyway.

Another comparison was that Horace/Osiris - (I don't remember all the names of these 'gods' but I'll look all this up and post it if someone wants me to) was born of a virgin mother. After researching it, this is what I found... the father had been torn limb from limb and spread about the world; the mother searched and only found his 'phallus', and then she used that to impregnate herself. Not really very virginal.

Anyway, the list went on like this. I stopped looking after a while when I found them to be baseless... except perhaps for the ideas that would commonly be expected of a savior, such as saving the world, judging mankind, bringing peace and/or victory to followers, etc. And then I felt bad for doubting in my faith enough that I had to look these things up.

We brought pagan rites and rituals into Christianity, intentionally or unintentionally, and now Christianity appear pagan, thereby discrediting our faith. But first century Christians, as well as those who would simply follow Christ and not all the doctrines, bear no real resemblance to anything pagan. I satisfied myself with my search, as I hope others would do also. I'm looking for some of the links I used, and will post them if anyone wants them.

BTW - When I brought up my findings the atheist, he shook his head and accused me of having 'blind' faith. But I'm the one who checked the sources and counter-arguments and then made my decision. (Though now I had to feel bad about doubting my faith to begin with, but at least I can answer those who bring this up.) But the atheist did not check sources or opposing views.

How then, is my my faith blind, and this disbelief enlightened?

Tec

tec

To be fair, I should admit that I haven't read this book. I'm not afraid to read it. I just don't think that I should have to read every piece of literature out there that tries to discredit my faith.

Tec

SixofNine

It was an age of hyperbole and mythmaking, tec. That's the takeaway from awildflower's quote.

tec

SixofNine - I agree with you about the takeaway of awildflower's quote, and I am not attacking her for that. But I was responding to,

'Sorry Christians, but you should know the history of your beliefs.'

Does this article deal honestly with the rites and doctrines found within organized Christianity... some. But as to the origin of Christ and his followers... I don't believe so.

I didn't mean to lead the thread away from its purpose. But the article seems to place myths and Jesus in one category, and I certainly disagree with that.

Tec

(I don't get to post anymore for a few hours. I'm at my limit for a newbie. Wish I knew when that would change.)

awildflower

Hi Tec, didn't mean to strike a defensive cord, and your right, you DON'T have to read everything or anything that you presume to try to "discredit" your faith. In fact the authors of the book even said that the belief in Jesus or any of these others can be a very good first step to deeper "spirituality". But you don't find it even the least bit interesting the above quote about Augustus being so closely related to what is said about Jesus? I just found that fascinating. And I have to say, the "tone" that Christians like yourself take on actually add credit to the authors by the brutality of the founding of modern day Christianity. The mindset of "us verses them", the "win at all cost", the "stomp out the rest"...........just very interesting to me.

Maybe my comment about "Christians should know their history" was to drastic or harsh so I apologize. I for one am interested in where things began. I love that the universe tends to work in paradoxes and to me this article showed the paradox of the one religion/faith on earth who claims to have a sole connection with God, Christianity, may be the one's who are the farthest from true spirituality.

tec

Hi, Awildflower... I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Just as much my fault for getting so defensive about "Christians should know their history." But I have researched the history of Christianity... though I did it because all these comparisons were giving me doubts, and my doubts were making me afraid. Calling myself a coward for 'closing my eyes rather than face the truth' I looked these things up. Then, after finding nothing to challenge my faith, I was angry at myself for allowed something weak and false to make me doubt God.

This anger at myself is probably where my defensiveness comes in. I honestly don't have an us against them mentality. I respect the right of everyone to whatever their belief, without any judgment. I can't see into a person's heart, and I certainly make more than my share of mistakes.

However, I do get upset when people such as those in that article, make comparisons between Jesus and all the pagan gods with false/mistaken/or uncertain information. As for the quote above, I believe many civilizations gave their kings and leaders god-like status. So the things quoted above, in my opinion, are common things that would be attributed to any god/savior type person.

So I don't think I would have mistaken the above for being about Jesus (unless I assumed the speaker was misguided). Not since I did my search into pagan similarities, at least. I'm honestly not being stubborn; this is a sincere answer.

And I think I've taken up enough of your thread on myself!

Tec

Quentin

Maybe my comment about "Christians should know their history" was to drastic or harsh so I apologize...

No need to apologize, most Christians DON"T take a hard critical look into their history, church, bible cannon, or otherwise. They cannot accept the fact Jesus has competition. It took over 600 years for Christiany to become what we today would recognize as such. Evan at that, the rest of the years has changed it more.

Jesus is your savior, good, go with that. Nothing wrong there. Understand though, it did not spring full grown from the beginning, lots of ups and downs, changes from then till now. With a lot of unanswered questions.

awildflower

I can appreciate what you say Tec. So in all seriousness, what has your research revealed as to the history of Christianity? How does it differ from the above article? Would you post anything that I could read about your research?

If the above article is indeed written with "false/mistaken/uncertain information", what is to say what you have found about the origins of Christianity is not "false/mistaken/uncertain information". The authors seemed to be just as convinced of what they found out as you seem to be about your search.

Seriously interested.

tec

But I have researched * t he* history of Christianity... though I did it because all these comparisons were giving me doubts, and my doubts were making me afraid.

Sorry. This is what happens when I don't look over my posts before posting. I researched *this* history of Christianity - to determine the authenticity of what claimed to discredit the belief in Christ as the son of God by showing how similar the beliefs about him are to other pagan gods/saviors.

I was clearer in my first post about what I searched for.

I did this search to prove things to myself, so I never wrote any papers or anything, so give me an hour or so and I'll post the links and what I found. Mostly I just looked up the stories of each of the pagan gods to see how those accounts compare with the account of Jesus Christ.

And Quentin, you're right. Most Christians don't search, or they might understand why Christianity today is under scrutiny for paganism.

Tec

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