by Chalam 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Snow,
Then you really are poles apart from an Evangelical like Stephen who believes in a literal Hell. Nice, so now we are back to the age old problem of interpreting Scripture. You said a 'plain reading' but notice how that is viewed so differently by each Denomination. Strange and interesting isn't it.
Shalom aleichem
It was always my opinion that the JW belief that 'death pays for sin' was partly responsible for the irresponsible behavior of some of there who believe they can do just about ANYTHING and be forgiven for it. If they are disfellowshipped, so what? They get reinstated and then they are back there raising their hand and giving answers like nothing happened.
This teaching, bolstered by their self-righteous works and ministry feeds into this belief.
Chalam, The WT, as you know, doesn't teach anything close to the view of the Atonement most Christians have, which is called "penal substitution." Christ's death only paid for the sin of Adam. This is from a convoluted application of Christ being the "last Adam." The details are kind of in chapter 5 of the What Does the Bible Teach book, if you have the energy to try and untangle its thoughts. -- How do the people that live through Armageddon into Paradise Earth pay for their personal sins? -- THe WT theology is so incredibly sad, and can lead to only incredible despair or complete arrogance. If you think of the Scriptures as containing both "Law" and "Gospel", their teachings keep only "Law" and completely remove "Gospel", which is pure Promise, or declaration of Good News. (Except for the ever growing Annointed class, of course.)
designs: Whether you believe in God or not is irrelevent. The fact I am trying to point out is how the Society twists the scriptures to support their murderous blood doctrines, telling parents that the cannot give them birthday parties, Christmases, etc.. Worse, teaching them that they are going to die if they celebrate these things and causing individual witnesses to take antidepressents to deal with their twisted beliefs. Again, twisting the scriptures to their own destruction. Let's also not forget how they teach shunning and tearing apart families from their faulty interpretations of scripture.
Now, I also know from experience that certain protestant churches do this as well and it would be wise to avoid these overly legalistic churches also. However, I also know that many churches also teach all those good things you pointed out and do real tangible things that benefit many. I tend to fall in this camp. Love is what is most important and are the two greatest commandments that true Christians follow.
You referred to me and others who were posting on this thread as fundamentalists when in fact some of the posters were atheist (real bright designs). As far as I am concerned, each individual is free to make up their own minds concerning their spiritual path but basing one's life choices on the interpretations of 9 men who can't seem to get a single date (that they say comes from the Bible) right does not make any sense. At least we're trying to help show what the text is actually saying. It is up to the individual to decide for himself or herself whether or not he or she wishes to believe in it.
Snow,
Then you really are poles apart from an Evangelical like Stephen who believes in a literal Hell.
Miles apart physically, but next door neighbors spiritually!
Nice, so now we are back to the age old problem of interpreting Scripture.
Yes. He sees a highway; I see a road - both leading to the same Person.
You said a 'plain reading' but notice how that is viewed so differently by each Denomination. Strange and interesting isn't it.
Yes, again, but this is what makes the journey so much more interesting. No cookie cutter Christians here!
Shalom aleichem
Back atcha!
Sylvia
I think that the point that might be overlooked here is that even if a person does "die in this system", they would be resurrected to a life of working toward perfection for 1000 years. There is no guarantee that they will survive the "final unloosing of Satan". They could still be destroyed and lose their everlasting life...thus a JW would say that they still needed Jesus' sacrifice to ultimately gain everlasting life, providing they make it through the 1000 year reign of Christ. They will be called from their graves to work toward perfection and then ultimately face destruction if they fail their test of loyalty.
Isn't that clear as mud??...
Hi disigns I appreciate your opinions thanks for your comments. Please do not misunderstand as an ex JW any different doctrine from the ones that i have accepted over the last thirty years will appear strange and examining the teachings of the mainstream churches I can clearly see difficulties. But the difference between being a JW and a born again christian is I have the freedom to explore the different teachings and test the spirits which was denied me as a JW . Not agreeing with some church teachings will not exclude me from worshipping, rather than squabbling about details the important thing is accepting Christs death and resurrection and that salvation can only come through christ and no one else and accepting his divinity.which jws don't accept.
If you read revelation chapter l-3 Christ commends and he also reproves most of the seven churches not for their philosophical arguments on basic teachings but for their problem of losing the love they had at first and for tolerating the abuse of the grace of God and the teaching of the nicolaitans practiced by some but not all, which christ hated. Christ clearly was also teaching individuals not to depart from the church as the jws say but to mature and to follow the example of the church in philadelphia which by my observation has been heppening to churches for many years now. The Church is Growing up. THE CHURCH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST [individuals] NOT AN ORGANIZATION, as you know. philosophical arguments are only important if you have the freedom to decided for yourself without intimidation. My workshop is to encourage JWs to explore freedom of concience and choice.
Nice exchange everyone.
Shalom aleichem
Nice exchange everyone.
It is possible.
Peace to you, also.
Sylvia
If all of this is supposed to be about 'spitituality' then why is it still "all about the money"? Did you ever notice how the concepts are always framed in a payment ?
"Buy back what Adam lost"...."Jesus paid for our sins", etc. Why are we in hock because of these people?
Death is not restitution for anything.
The reason we die is because this is not our natural environment. We can never be "perfect" while in this environment because these clay bodies were never created perfectly. They break, they bleed, they become diseased, they wither. If the god of this world could not create our bodies perfectly, then how could this deity ever expect our behavior to be perfect? There will never be perfection on this planet.
When we are done here, we will be restored to the former ...not 'resurrected' to be as we are now. And certainly not to live here on this trashy contaminated world with it's sorrowful memories of war and horrors.
