How is magisterium different from Governing Body?????

by Terry 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  villabolo

  Burn The Ships:

  "Villa: Not to imply that growth is proof of exclusive truth, but currently, the "senescent", "defanged" Catholic Church is going through one of the greatest periods of growth in its long history."

  Apply "senescent" to its world wide hierarchy. Especially in places like the US where they cannot find enough priests. "Defanged" refers to its evil power as of 400 years ago. Its growth can only be understood in the context of what is happening world wide with MANY religions during these times of distress. When the USSR collapsed there was a major growth in many religions particularly charismatics and apocalyptics. Of course, the JWs were referring to their own growth even lieing about the weakened state of other religions. It is well known by Sociologists that religions grow among the poor, disenfranchised and during periods of social upheavals.

  So the issue is not Growth = Truth but why are you growing? And the reason is that they have (false) hope to offer those people.

  Whether you know it or not, you may have internalized a great deal of antiCatholic JW propaganda."

  Wrong. I was born and baptized and did First Communion as a Catholic. By the time I became a JW, I had no particular animosity against Catholicism. When I left the JWs I threw away very quickly the JW mindset. It is not anti-Catholicism that you detect in my writings but, if you carefully look at all of them on different subjects, it is anti-authoritarianism in general. Examples, All Government, All Businesses/Corporations, All hierarchical Religions. It is the outlook not of someone who has internalized anti-Catholicism from any source but that of an Anarchist who believes in egalitarian social structures.

  villabolo
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  villabolo

  Burn The Ships:

  "The dark ages weren't quite so dark as is made out, and Catholic institutions were the only thing that preserved what knowledge and culture remained from classical civilization against incipient barbarism."

  There are many examples of classical writings that were "recycled" by the Catholic monks by being erased and written over with hymns and other Catholic writings. I recall hearing of the tedious efforts made to chemically to restore a Greek mathematical formala that had been erased and written over with a hymn. So much for their preserving classical literature, they basically preserved whatever did not contradict the Catholic world view.

  Also don't for get their book burnings including authors burned at the stake with their books. Even Bibles were burned. Such preservation of knowledge!

  villabolo
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  hamilcarr

  Rome and Brooklyn do the same: they define their adherents' conscience and don't know the word "freedom".
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  GromitSK

  I think the comparison with the WTS and the catholics church is unfair. I mean the WTS has burned people at the stake (yet).
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  villabolo

  I think the comparison with the WTS and the catholics church is unfair. I mean the WTS has burned people at the stake (yet).

  The only reason the Jehovah's Witnesses have not executed their heretics is simply because they don't have the power to do so. They certainly have the desire. All they need, in practical terms, is some sovereign territory in which they are unmolested by any other State powers and they will carry out whatever they see fit.

  I personally was told by my Judicial Committee that, to quote exactly, "If you were in Israel you would be stoned". Ancient Israel of course, which is the WTS ideal of a perfect state. I think you nullified what you said with that last word "yet". "Yet" is the postponed dream of those who WISH IT NOW. If you've been in the JWs for any length of time you must know that in your heart.

  villabolo
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  dgp

  I think Villabolo is right every time. I am a former Catholic myself. I must point out, however, that the Catholic Church does have dissident theologians, like Hans Küng, something which would be absolutely unthinkable in the Watchtower. Can you imagine them letting Ray Franz be an elder despite all his differences of opinion?

  It is very, very true that the stranglehold of the Catholic Church is not as strong today only because other entities have forced it to give up on a lot it used to do. Like, for example, real theocracies, as in the Papal States.

  The similarities with the Watchtower are not just the "magisterium". Catholics and Dubs want the "rank-and-file", the "sheep", to simply and blindly obey whatever they are told to follow.

  Incidentally, I like this post:

  First by stating which scripture would be considered Scripture

  It is a very sound basis to doubt the Bible in its entirety. It so happens that a Roman, formerly pagan emperor decided to use the cross as his sign in a battle. Having won, he decided to make the religion represented by that cross the religion of the empire. He had to decide what that church was, however, and it could not be just the many diverse beliefs that existed at the time. The emperor and some other smart guys decided what the canon would be. There is room to suspect it was just a political decision. And that's what so many believe to be "the inerrant word of God". Much blood has been shed, and much blood has not been transfused, because of quarrels over that.
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  villabolo

  "I think Villabolo is right every time. I am a former Catholic myself. I must point out, however, that the Catholic Church does have dissident theologians, like Hans Küng, something which would be absolutely unthinkable in the Watchtower. Can you imagine them letting Ray Franz be an elder despite all his differences of opinion?"

  Thanks for the compliment on the first sentence dgp but I myself may take issue with that.

  As far as having dissident theologians my favorite was Teilhard De Chardin, a Jesuit whose beliefs and books were censured by the Church. Anyone who is familiar with his teachings and compares them in his mind with the mentality of the 17th century Church would know right away that he would have been tortured until he either recanted or was burnt at the stake. Simple analogy, Giordano Bruno.

  So it is irrelevant that the MODERN Jehovah's Witnesses are grossly intolerable and the MODERN Catholics are not. The comparison I'm making is between MODERN Jehovah's Witnesses and 17th CENTURY Catholics. The only lack in the analogy is that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not in a position to kill or physically threaten their members but as I previously brought out in another post, they would gladly do so if they had the opportunity.

  villabolo
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  GLTirebiter

  They also had this little thing called the Dark Ages where the rank and file weren't taught to read or allowed to own a Bible.

  There was nothing unusal or sinister about that. Literacy was a perogative of the ruling class long before the church existed. Owning books (any books, not just the Bible) was financially impossible for most people until Gutenberg lowered the cost of the printed word; only the wealthy could afford them. Books were prohibitively expensive for the lower classes when they had to be copied by hand. The only hope the average person had to become literate was to join a Catholic monastary and devote their life to making new copies of the Bible with pen and ink.

  Mass literacy is a modern phenomenon. Don't make conclusions about life in Europe 1500 years ago based on 2010 in America.

  GLT
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  villabolo

  GL Tirebiter: "Books were prohibitively expensive for the lower classes when they had to be copied by hand. . . Mass literacy is a modern phenomenon. Don't make conclusions about life in Europe 1500 years ago based on 2010 in America."

  Somewhat misleading GL. In the first century there was more literacy amongst the middle classes than you may think. Not the mass literacy of America, which by the way is a poor example of literacy compared to Europe or Japan, but enough literacy so that a few per congregation could read the Christian Scriptures to the rest.

  Nevertheless in spite of limitations of literacy, though not the exagerrated ones, the Orthodox Church made it FORBIDDEN for ANYONE other than a BISHOP to own Scripture. Why, if it couldn't be read by hardly anyone? This was in the third century. I'm sure that literacy dropped drastically soon afterwards but there was no relaxing of laws.

  villabolo
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  Terry

  IT is important to consider your focus.

  An authoritarian institution such as the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses or the historical Roman Catholic Church supresses (or filters out)

  UNacceptable thinking, ideas, free expression and SUBSTITUTES their laundered version of "truth."

  They PRESERVE their own version of how things are and how people should view history.

  Controlling access to reality itself, a distortion of reality is created.

  The Watchtower publications often misrepresent the arguments and data of their enemies by selective use of quotes and by bracketing the presentation of the ideas of others with snide language which mischaracterizes their arguments.

  The Early Church burned the writings of those with whom they disagreed and preserved references to their enemies with distorted descriptions of their beliefs, speeches and writing.

  What is the Main Point to be gleaned from a review of this similarity?

  Consider this, if you will.

  JESUS ENGAGED his opposers in dialogue, discussion, argument, debate and colloqy!

  Face to face he allowed the free expression of the opponent's views to allow a public consideration of them and his responses so that the crowd watching and listening could THINK FOR THEMSELVES and decide who was right.

  Quite an amazing contrast that the founder of Christianity is ignored, betrayed and never emulated.

  Can it be because Authority has been substituted for clear critical thinking?

  A coward does not fight fair.

  A loyal opposition is the foundation of a democratic society in modern times. Courts of law allow cross-examination and the free consideration of evidence by opposing sides.

  But, a despotic ruler refuses to allow contrary ideas a platform of presentation.

  Neither Jehovah's Governing Body nor the early Roman Catholic Church permit a loyal opposition their free speech.