by wannabe 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
BTS,
Infants and small children are not able to sin. They are not yet competent. They are below the age of reason.
The principle is reflected in our own laws.
Thus that being the case Adam & Eve could not have sinned because the bible says they were innocent and did not yet know good and bad, being newly created as the story goes they were definitely below the age of reason.
While I take the story about the Fall as allegorical, metaphorical, the Bible makes no mention of Adam and Eve being below the capacity to reason.
BTS
Why would god spare the children of the damned anyways? Like he ever did before?
Who cares for wild coyote cubs?
cofty,
Clearly the propensity to 'sin' is not exclusive to us 'imperfect' humans anyway. Both Adam and Eve found it pretty easy to 'sin' in their
perfect conditions. So humans have the innate inclination to do wrong in their 'perfect' or 'imperfect' states. So what's the difference?
Good point and if we assume that this story is true and carry it to its logical conclusion, then God's declaration in the book of genesis that everything he made was" good" or "just so" shows God's handy work was not really "good" and that it had hidden flaws which were not apparent to God at the time that he declared them "good".
Which make one wonder why he would test them to see if they were "good" after the proclamation of everything "good"? Did God mean good only in a limited sense like "good enough" or "not bad" or "not too shabby" or "good with mental reservations" ?
And so this would also cast doubt on any future promises of "perfection" with everlasting life implied after the all the testing by Satan after the 1000 years. What hope could the JWs have of God never turning on them in the future and destroying them on a whim because of some other minor matter involving eating or dress code violation. Not a very trust worthy God to base ones everlasting future on.
Such a God who delights in animal sacrifices, and even human sacrifices for sins is a terrifying tyrant. His willingness to cause suffering when not obeyed and his anger at the handy work of his own creative power doesn't recommend him as a Deity to be worshipped out of Love but more from a morbid fear of his fits of anger that are not very logical and seem to be very egotistically motivated in that he fails to take any responsibility for making something that doesn't meet his own standards of what is good.
Even with my best theology head on (evangelical or watchtower) I can't imagine a reasonable answer to this dilema.
Was it at least theoretically possible for Adam and Eve to remain obedient?
If so, what was wrong with the particular Adam and Eve that god made?
Why did he not make a different Adam and Eve who would freely obey?
If not, then it was rigged and god is the willful author of all suffering.
Was gods sin one of commission or omission?
Cofty,
If we approach the Adam & Eve story with the often claimed view that God is almighty and all knowing then we can't help but conclude that the whole thing was rigged from the get go. The WT explanation that God is all knowing and yet didn't see it coming, is a case of special pleading that is full of paradoxes.
And how can one hold the idea that God is all knowing, almighty, and perfect in Love if he made them with flaws deserving of death. If perfect obedience is what is required of perfect creatures and the out come of disobedience is death, then God should have made them incapable of disobedience for their own good if he was the perfect example of love.
Only a very sick person would bring something into existence with desire to put them to the test which they were sure to fail and make them and all future offspring suffer horribly for it for 6,000 years. Not very appealing sort of fellow to worship for an eternity from a heart full of love if you ask me.
This is probably the biggest Scam in the universe--Jehovah Himself is pulling off this kind of scam so He can control everyone. What He does it to create a problem where none actually existed, and then a "solution" that is going to cost much in the way of time and enjoyment of life. To make sure people fall in line, He distresses us continually so He can present "deliverance" from both that distress and the "original sin" that is about as real to me as the swine flu and man-made global warming. But, to benefit from that "deliverance", exclusive devotion to that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag is required.
Besides, I see not even a shred of evidence that Adam, as an individual, existed at all. I believe "Adam" is used to represent the whole human race. The real story reads "And mankind (all of them, not just one pair) was content with everything anyone doing being what Jehovah told them to. Now, Jehovah was planning on making a tyranny where mankind would slave for Him for some 30 non-fulfilling years, and then die of being used up. Upon realizing this, Satan saw the urgent need to stop Jehovah from executing this. Satan spoke in front of mankind about this, and now people were able to consciously think for themselves. Jehovah, upon seeing that people were no longer primed to fall for His tyranny, got pxxxed and pronounced harsh punishment on all mankind--the exact same harsh dictatorship and distress He always was going to have had for us."
In truth, no one has sinned until society (including religion) beats out the child in us. Once we stop dreaming, once we stop hoping to create a better world, we start settling for being cogs in the Establishment. Laziness, dishonesty, and envy set in, and once we are programmed by society and religion to view what is actually good as bad and what is actually bad as good, we become sinners--and it is extremely difficult to deprogram us once that happens (especially with society itself continuing to force us to settle for the Establishment).
If perfect obedience is what is required of perfect creatures and the out come of disobedience is death, then God should have made them incapable of disobedience for their own good if he was the perfect example of love.
I can grasp the theistic objection to this that it was necessary that humans freely choose to obey.
My point is slightly different, if its possible for humans to freely choose good then what was wrong with A & E why did god not use his foreknowledge to see that coming?
The WT explanation that God is all knowing and yet didn't see it coming, is a case of special pleading that is full of paradoxes.
I agree. The strange claim of the borg that god can foreknow anything he wished but chooses no to, solves nothing. I used to puzzle over this one when I was a child
