Even if you grant that the Bible has evidence of a perfect paradise earth for mankind, there is NO evidence that ANYone is destined to be resurrected there. NONE.
Paul said death means to GAIN!
by sacolton 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
PSacramento
Stephen,
Nowhere does it say that when we die, we go to heaven.
We may all eventually go there, but there is no indication that upon our death that is what happens.
It is interpretive and that is how JW's see it, of course they see it based on their own doctrine and interprtations.
First they show the selected passages from the OT that gives the allusion of there is nothing after death but death and then they "build" on that by use of other selective passages taken out of context so that, by the time they arrive at Paul's words, they say, "Obviously Paul didn't mean that when we die we go to heaven".
Manipulation 101.
-
sacolton
PSac,
Jesus told the thief, "Truly I tell you, today you will be in paradise with me." (Luke 23:43) Jesus was going to Heaven and all those he preached to in the realm of the dead.
-
PSacramento
Sac,
You are preaching to the converted here, but my point is that, for a JW, there is enough gray area to work with.
Paradise is not heaven and Jesus didn't go to heaven on the day he died, did he?
Note:
Obviously we know his spirit did..." Father, unto your hands I commit my spirit"...
-
Chalam
SA, you beat me to it :)
Paradise is not heaven and Jesus didn't go to heaven on the day he died, did he?
Jesus obviously thought he was going there. The "descended to hell and on the third day" doctrine does not hold water IMHO.
"Paradise" only occurs three times so it is easy to define.
Luke 23:43 (English Standard Version)
43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (English Standard Version)
Paul’s Visions and His Thorn
1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.2 Corinthians 12:3-4 (English Standard Version)
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
Revelation 2:7 (English Standard Version)
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
Paul makes it clear, paradise is "third heaven".
How does the verse from Revelation help? Where is the tree now? It is in heaven but one day it will come down "out of heaven" with the city, see here Revelation 21 Revelation 22
This is another interesting verse
Hebrews 12:1 ESV
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses
Of course, all of the witnesses are dead, save Enoch who never died Hebrews 11:5
I believe they too are in heaven (paradise) along with the thief, Paul and all the other dead believers and Enoch who also believed :)
Blessings,
Stephen
-
PSacramento
I think Elijah was take up to God too, in the OT, no?
-
Chalam
I think Elijah was take up to God too, in the OT, no?
Indeed but he isn't mentioned in the list of believers in Hebrews 11.
That said he is of course part of the "cloud of witnesses" and is the second person who did not "taste death", Enoch being the other. There could be others but they are certainly the exception Romans 6:23 Hebrews 9:27
Blessings,
Stephen