Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  digderidoo

  Sorry to rehash an old topic.

  in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

  Daniel is clearly speaking of Jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of Jerusalem, rather than a Babylonian dominance of Jeremiah.

  So how does Daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of Jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in Jeremiah?

  Paul
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  zoiks

  Without getting in too deep tonight (my glass of scotch has more of my attention), you might start by checking different bible translations. Many versions refer to desolation as plural- desolations. Then check a good bible commentary on what these desolations may have referred to.
  Sorry but any more typing on my blackberry will rob me of quality time with The Glenlivet.
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  Larsinger58

  Jewish tradition and Jewish history per Josephus believed these 70 years began when the people went off their land, that is, at the time of the last deportation.

  Ant. 11.1.1

  IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

  The concept of 70 years being in reference to the domination of Babylon arises because the Persians revised the Neo-Babylonian timeline and removed 26 years from the NB kings and thus the Bible's NB Period is 26 years longer than the surviving records. You can't factor in the 70 years from year 23 (last deportation) to the 1st of Cyrus from the original chronology with the reduced timeline. So rather than deal with revisionism an attempt has been made to make the 70 years not so contradictory so they came up with this 70 years of domination by Babylon rather than allow the Bible to directly contradict and thus expose the revised Babylonian records.

  But as the above scripture you pointed out shows, the 70 years in connection with the desolation (or desolations) of Jerusalem. So regardless of whether or not Babylon ruled over its first conquered nation for 70 years or not, it would not affect the specific 70 years of time when the people last deported were in exile at Babylon for 70 years.

  Bottom line is, just as you read the above scripture that would introduce 70 years of desolation for Jerusalem which would tend to cause you to second guess either the Bible's timeline or the Babylonian timeline, a desperate effort to keep you from looking into the weaknesses of the Babylonian chronology is the only reason for trying to apply the 70 years to something else that works with the revised timeline. But, of course, that doesn't work if you're being honest. The NB timeline and the Bible can't both be correct. One of them is wrong. It's up to you to decide which upon your own investigation.

  LS
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  Larsinger58

  The original timeline dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE and the 70 years began in 525 BCE, the year of the last deportation, which is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. This means the 70 years of desolation for Jerusalem is in connection with no people being in the land for thos 70 years. Jerusalem might have been destroyed but there were some poor people left in the land who might still have inhabited Jerusalem so it was not desolated until all the people were removed.

  If you're following JWs you'll have to correct the following...

  1. The 70 years begins in year 23, not the year Jerusalem falls, which they now date to year 18.

  2. You must realize that Gedaliah was appointed governor at an unknown time but that he was not murdered until the 20th of Nebuchadnezzar. JWs teach the land was desolated that very same year that Jerusalem fell. This is incorrect. How do we know? Because the mourning over Gedaliah in the 7th month did not begin until 2 years after the fall of Jerusalem. Thus 70 years of mourning in the 7th month over Gedaliah ends in the 4th year of Darius the Mede. 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem ends in the 2nd year of Darius the Mede. The 2-year difference proves Gedaliah died in the 20th year and began to be mourned the following year, creating a 2-year interval.

  Again, the easiest way to understand the 70 years is just to follow Josephus and Jewish history as noted above. The Jews knew that the 70 years of desolation was the same 70 years of servitude of those last deported.

  LS
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  Larsinger58

  Please note that the apostate WTS and the secular history promote the same revised timeline. The WTS promotes that 539 BCE is the reliable date for the fall of Babylon though they revise other critical dates, like the fall of Jerusalem which they date to 607 BCE, or the 20th of Artaxerxes they move up 10 years from 445 to 455 BCE. But they do not correct the false dating and thus promote the same revised timeline that the secular revisionists do. This is an advanced tactice of Freemasonry. To introduce two conflicting FALSE ideas for people to choose from without them knowing the truth. So Satan uses the WTS as much he does the Catholic Church ultimately.

  LS
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  AnnOMaly

  Hi digderidoo. HERE might be a good place to start.

  And cuuuuuuuuuue 'scholar' ...
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  digderidoo

  Thanks Ann.

  JCanon, i have asked about Daniel 9:2, not about Josephus....if you have something to say on the matter stick to Daniel, rather than your own Messianic agenda.

  Paul
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  Doug Mason

  At Daniel 9:2, he says “would last seventy years”. The Hebrew word that is translated as “last” is (approximately) “male”. Daniel read this word at Jer 25:12, where it is translated as “fulfilled”, and at Jer 29:10, where it is translated as “completed”. Several online translations of Jer 29:10 show that this is the sense of that word.

  When the word “male” relates to time "it refers to the completion of a particular period of time” (Mounce’s “Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words”, page 250).

  Daniel thus understood that the “seventy years of desolation” had ended (“male”). His focus at Chapter 8 had been the status of the Sanctuary at Jerusalem. He now saw that the 70 years at the hand of Babylon had ended, because the Persians and Medes had been victorious.

  Daniel thus saw that although the servitude to Babylon had ended, that the people were still being held in exile and the Lord had done nothing about restoring the beloved sanctuary at Jerusalem.

  When Daniel read Jeremiah, he would also see that the condition for the Jews’ to return lay in them seeking the Lord (not the other way around) and confessing their sin.

  So Daniel took it on himself to make that confessional prayer to the Lord. Not once in his prayer does he ask for the Seventy Years to end; what he did is to confess the national sin and to seek the Lord’s blessing on the temple at Jerusalem.

  Since this was not a national confession of sin, Angel Gabriel says that while the rebuilding will take place, a further period of servitude was being placed on the nation during which they were to put an end to sin and to legalise the sanctuary. The 70 years of servitude to Babylon would be extended to 70 heptads in probationary servitude to the Lord.

  Doug
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  Doug Mason

  Maybe I need to provide a further clarification.

  The "Destruction of Jerusalem" needs to be kept separate from the "Seventy Years". The destruction was conditional and could have been avoided; the 70 years of servitude to Babylon was unconditional; it was in place and it could not be avoided. The city would not have been destroyed if they had willingly served Babylon.

  So Daniel 9:2 is saying that the desolation of Jerusalem would finish ("male") when "the seventy years" ended. But that does not mean they started together.

  Didge, Within a week I will provide my study on the Babylonian Exile, which will provide more detailed analysis. I have some editing and proof-reading to do. Doug
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  Doug Mason

  An alternative and probably more reasonable resolution relates to the authorship of Daniel. Nowhere does Jeremiah state that Jerusalem was to be devastated for seventy years. Jeremiah says there would be “servitude” to Babylon (25:11) for seventy years and that the Lord would allow them to return when The Seventy Years had ended (“were completed”: 29:10).

  If Daniel claims that Jeremiah said Jerusalem would be devastated for 70 years, then the writers of the book of Daniel got it wrong. The mistake could have been accidental or it could have been deliberate. This would be understandable if the generally accepted date of authorship of 167-164 BCE for the book of Daniel is correct. The writers either misread Jeremiah or they wished to misrepresent it in order to influence their contemporary audience. The manipulation of history to suit a contemporary need was not uncommon at that time.

  The agrarian community was not literate. Written communication was employed by the urban elite, who naturally had the scribes. So there was probably little likelihood of the farmers and their ilk checking on the veracity of what the priests told them.

  The book of Daniel is mystical in nature, with dreams being interpreted, unnatural occurrences (fire not burning, lions not eating), and Daniel is not a typical prophet, in that he did not speak to the people of God. The word “understand” (biyn) at Daniel 2 implies a spiritual comprehension, which is borne out shortly afterwards when the 70 years are reinterpreted to contain a spiritual meaning of 70 heptads.

  One could reason that the writers of Daniel reinterpreted Jeremiah’s 70 years to make them run down to their own time by drawing in (conflating) the “seven times” from Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28.

  This action of conflation was also taken by the writer of the books of 2 Chronicles 36:21 when he pulled in Leviticus 26:31-44 because Jeremiah did not say what he wanted Jeremiah to say. The Chronicler lived at least 200 years after Babylon fell. It is not beyond possibility that these later writers wrote the 26th chapter of Leviticus at the same time.

  Doug