Trinity, Trinity, Trinity...

by Mazzie Brossmann 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Slappy

  First, let me say that I have, as of yet, to understand the significance and necessity of believing in the "Trinity". As such, I cannot and do not defend or refute it in anyway. I have asked some "Trinitarian" friends to explain to me the importance of such a belief, but that simple and honest question has stumped them.

  However, that being said, I do understand the utmost importance of believing that Jesus is God. JW (and LDS) put forward that believing in Christ is necessary for salvation but that He is not God. Others, such as myself, agree that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, but disagree on who they say Jesus is. We cannot both be right. One of us is believing in a Jesus who does not exist! He is either God or He is not. If He is not God, then I need to be shown this because the Jesus that I believe has saved me does not exist! And if my Savior is non-existent, so is my salvation non-existent. This is the most important precept of the Christian faith and without it everything else falls apart.

  Keep in mind that when we attempt to show why Jesus is, or is not, God (sola Scriptura), we need to take all of Scripture into account and not just those portions that seem to prove our point. Furthermore, we cannot take the explanations of another in order to defend our position. If we cannot defend our position from our own understanding of the Bible, then we need to shut up until we are able to do so. Because if we don't understand it ourselves in a way that allows us to defend and confirm our position, then who are we to say what we believe?

  (Not sure what the character limit is for these posts, so I'll end this one and start another.)
• 

  Slappy

  Jeremiahjs said: "The NT descibes and empasizes Jesus being one with God as two seperate beings and has many scriptures that can be read to view Jesus as God, but that is wrong."

  I know this may be a novel idea, but why don't you just read things as they've been written? The only reason that there are so many different sects of Christianity in the world today is because some hotshot intellectuals read into what has been written. They say that while the Bible seems to say this, that's not really what it's saying. Preconceived notions are the #1 hinderance in understanding the Scriptures. For example, when we read John 20:28, is it such a stretch that Thomas said what he said fully believing that Jesus is the physical manifestation of God? Any other "interpretation" requires one to twist what has been clearly written. Why would we ever want to do that?!

  Jeremiahjs said: "John20:17 If Jesus were God he woudln't have left to return to his Father; his Father would have been him and there with him (his God and our God = one God, not Jesus he is our Lord and Son of God.)"

  Who are you, sir, to limit God? To say where He can be and where He can't be? Is it such a stretch to have an omnipresent God be in two places at once? If so, then I pity your weak God who is apparently subject to the same physical limitations that we are. Thankfully, the Bible does not present us with a weak God who is physically limited. In John 4:24 we're told that "God is spirit..." and that is key to understanding and knowing our God.
• 

  PSacramento

  There in lies the crux of the matter, God is limitless and God can be what he chooses to be.

  We as humans can't define God much less restrict what God can be.
• 

  Slappy

  Jeremiahjs said: "Romans 10:9 God raised Jesus from the dead; if Jesus were God, God would have been dead and couldn't have raised Jesus. Jesus is the way to the Father not the Father himself."

  Again, this is another example of taking a portion that seems to prove your point and using it while ignoring other portions that don't support the interpretation you have put forward. THIS is why it's sooo important to view things in light of the entire Word of God! Paul says that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  However, when we take this verse and compare it with John 10:17-18--"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."--we see see that the interpretation that you have put forward does not hold water. Ask yourself "Why does Jesus have power to take back his life (aka. raise himself from the dead)?" Perhaps because He is fully man and fully God and while His physical self did indeed die, His spiritual self was still alive and well (if a little worse for wear due to bearing the wrath that God had toward our past, present, and future infidelities against Him).

  Please, I urge you, do not put physical limitations on God. The moment you do that, He becomes something less than God.
• 

  PSacramento

  I have always said that, regardless of your view, in the case of the New Covenant, Jesus is, for all intents and purposes, God.
• 

  dig692

  I'm really trying to understand the concept of the Trinity as it's supposed to be understood. As a side note, I have always believed that Jesus is God's son, but not God, even before being introduced to JWs. However, I cannot refute the Trinity believe either, so I am really just looking to better understand it.

  Some questions I have:

  1. In the beginning, when God created everything, was this God God, or Jesus God, or both? When God said "Let US make..." was he speaking to a separate person (Jesus or Holy Sprit, or both) or was he speaking to himself?

  2. When Jesus was on earth, how was he different than when he was in Heaven? When he was baptied, what who's voice came out of Heaven saying "this is my son..."? What does "this is my son" mean from a Trinitarian perspective?
• 

  leavingwt

  I'm really trying to understand the concept of the Trinity as it's supposed to be understood.

  If you were once a JW, step one to understanding WHAT the Trinity doctrine is all about, is to rid yourself of the false/strawman definition put forth by Watchtower. Their Trinity brochure misrepresents what the doctrine is.

  The following audio presentation does a good job of explaining WHAT the Trinity is, with a JW audience in mind. The speaker is lively and never boring. You'll need either RealPlayer or Media Player Classic to play these audio files.

  http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity.ram (Part I)

  http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity2.ram (Part II)

  -LWT
• 

  dig692

  Thanks LWT. I'll check these out when I get home (restricted internet access at work). I am trying to put aside all the WT teachings and start over with a blank mind so to speak.
• 

  Slappy

  Good to hear dig692!

  As for your questions I'll answer as best I can. It may still be difficult to see things without that "JW lens" skewingthings, but as much as is currently possible for you, take the words of Scripture to mean what they say; don't read into or apply any interpretation to the Bible. For ease of reading without losing any of the ideas conveyed in the original languages, I recommend the ESV Bible. I'm very impressed with it (even though I use the NKJV to study) and find it's use of modern verbiage and punctuation to be incredibly enlightening.

  Question #1: We're never told who God was speaking to, but can we not infer from what is given us in the rest of Scripture?

  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth..." John 1:1-3, 14

  "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5

  See also John 1:10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2; Daniel 3:25 for portions that convey the same idea. Daniel 3:25 is of special note because this clearly happened before the birth of Jesus, yet here is a mention of the Son of God. Which agrees to what Jesus said in John 17:5 (above) and John 8:58.

  It looks like some of the portions I've listed may also answer your second question. Someone else may tackle it in more depth...I gtg to lunch.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Mazzie,

  I posted this from the ESV Study Bible recently

  The Trinity. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Trinity is unbiblical because the word is not in the Bible and because the Bible emphasizes that there is one God. Biblically, while it is true that there is only one God (Isa. 44:6; 45:18; 46:9; John 5:44; 1 Cor. 8:4;James 2:19), it is also true that three persons are called God in Scripture: the Father (1 Pet. 1:2), Jesus (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3–4). Each of these three possesses the attributes of deity—including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7; Jer. 23:23–24; Matt. 28:20), omniscience (Ps. 147:5; John 16:30; 1 Cor. 2:10–11), omnipotence (Jer. 32:17; John 2:1–11; Rom. 15:19), and eternality (Ps. 90:2; Heb. 9:14; Rev. 22:13). Still further, each of the three is involved in doing the works of deity—such as creating the universe: the Father (Gen. 1:1; Ps. 102:25), the Son (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30). The Bible indicates that there is three-in-oneness in the godhead (Matt. 28:19