Was the Apostle Paul the Rutherford of his day?

by nugget 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nugget
    nugget

    I was doing reseaerch on early days of the society and remembered a radio programme about the Apostle Paul from earlier in the year. The gist of the programme was that Paul had remodeled the early christians in his image and that many of the restrictions and edicts from that time had little to do with Jesus earlier teaching. For example the vilification of homosexuals and the denegration of women.

    This made me think about how Rutherford changed the early Bible students and added restrictions to them as well trying to remodel the organisation into something he could control.

    Jesus spent time teaching about the kingdom, preaching the need for love, forgiveness and acceptance. In his parable of the prodigal son, the child was allowed to make his own choices in life and when he returned the father welcomed him home straight away. There was no restrictions or penance to be paid just love.

    In Acts 15 we are told that when the older men in Jerusalem had considered what rules should be imposed on the congregations the list was small, no fornication, worship of false gods and blood. The Men who made these rules had no doubt known Jesus personally and made a considered judgement based on what they thought he would wish.

    When Paul came on the scene he didn't have the gravitas of being one of the early disciples so he has a vision and Jesus speaks to him personally from heaven. The conversation is brief but Paul realises the error of his ways an converts. He then sets about making himself a leader within the organisation. He belittles the older men in Jerusalem in his letters and writings, he makes a point of belittling Peter telling him off publicly. The fact that Peter didn't lump him one in the congretion says more about Peter's christian qualities than Pauls. After all I don't recall Matt 18 telling people that if they have a problem with their brothers then they should tell them off in the congregation, write a letter to the circuit and then publish it for the world to see.

    Pauls letters are full of added restrictions and rules. He introduces the idea of keeping the congregation clean and casting out those who don't follow the rules.(Judas was allowed to continue association with Jesus and if ever there was a case of the need for disfellowshipping he would be number 1) He puts women in their place (very Rutherford). Many people who oppose him are publicly are reprimanded through his letters and people are told to quit mixing with them.

    The christianity of Paul seems some distance from Jesus and love has little place in his writings. It is left up to John to tell us about love and he was the disciple Jesus loved so I feel more warmth towards him.

    So in organisation speak perhaps Rutherford was the antitypical Paul whoo hoo prophecy fulfilled. Except that would make Russell the antitypical Jesus, oh pooh that doesn't work.

    What are your thoughts?

  • wobble
    wobble

    Dear Nugget,

    I think that you,and many others do Paul an injustice by a superficial looking at his writings.

    They need to be read,as does all scripture, or indeed any literature, with due care and attention being given to the milieu in which the writer found himself, the morals of the time, the theology of the writer, what was the extent of his knowledge of god, and the writers motive,amongst other things.

    It is easy to take cheap swipes at Paul, and say he was Misogynistic or hated homosexuals or condoned slavery, such accusations do not stand up to scrutiny. Many of course, take issue with Paul because they still half believe that what he and his contemporaries wrote, is Law for Christians today.

    So they attack the person of Paul in an endeavour to belittle his writings. I believe Paul's letters,and most of the N.T, needs to be read firmly in its 1st. Century context, as instruction for the new churches THEN. Little of it has direct relevance to Christians today, apart from drawing principles from it.

    As to the kind of person he was, Acts 20 v37 & 38 tells of his friends weeping at his departure and tenderly kissing him, he must have been a lovely guy.

    I agree that it was he who really started the religion of the Christians, Jesus himself was content to preach and teach, not organize. But Paul claims that Jesus gave him the job of doing this and the Holy Spirit guided him in what he did.

    Love

    Wobble

  • acolytes
    acolytes

    I think when the followers of Christ allowed themselfs to be called Christians it all went wrong-(The term Christian came from those who opposed the followers of Christ) That term Chistian esculated to the seperation by denominations ect ect ect. (How did the good samaritan fit into this. Or the man who built a temple and had such faith in Christ he considerd himself unworthy to meet him in person but new Jesus would raise his friend from the dead.) Followers of Christ do not need to be labled Christian:

    Acolytes

  • nugget
    nugget

    Wobble, thank you for your insight I can see the point you made about Paul and organising the first Century congregations. Where though does Jesus give him this commision? Didn't Jesus give Peter the keys to the kingdom aren't keys the symbol of authority?

    You also didn't address Paul's attitude to Peter and others. Regardless of how well regarded Paul was I still think his lack of restraint in dealing with others who disagreed did not reflect Jesus's attitude.

    Your aswer to the above points may influence whether Cantleave can go down the pub.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Dear Nugget,

    If you want chapter and verse I can show you from scripture where Cantleave and I are COMMANDED to go down the pub, and dammit, enjoy drinking all that ale !

    As to Pauls straight talking manner,he may not have been the perfect diplomat, but Peter does not seem to hold a grudge, he just talks of some of Pauls writings being hard to understand. It is difficult ,not having been there, to really pick up on the tone used by Paul in giving his advice verbally.

    I think Pauls advice was common sense stuff for them then, given in a manner that was not mealy-mouthed and could be understood, but it does need examining properly, many mis-read his advice on women and the veil etc. and of course the W.T has totally cocked up what he said about not having fellowship with out and out sinners.

    I think you need to come down the Pub with me and Cantleave and we will probably all end up adjusting our point of view, and pissed as well !

    Love

    Wobble

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    As to Pauls Rutherford's straight talking manner,he may not have been the perfect diplomat, but Peter My parents do not seem to hold a grudge, they just talk of some of Pauls Rutherford's writings being hard to understand

    I see both of these people as taking relatively harmless beliefs of their era and using them to fashion high control groups for the (self proclaimed) benefit of their victims.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • nugget
    nugget

    It's a shame that we didn't know you when we last went to France, we stayed in Kent we could have all met down the pub. We are looking forward to meeting you soon. Cantleave says there is an Apostacurry planned soon, with enough notice to get baby sitters we will be there.

  • acolytes
    acolytes

    If Iam your leader would you follow me.

    One is our leader or it becomes a "crisis of concience "and not a singular"question of concience"

    Acolytes.

  • wobble
    wobble

    I do not think Paul was trying to establish a high control group, I think he wanted the Jews to free themselves from the Law and the Gentiles and them, both find "The glorious freedom of the children of God"

    Chazzer Russell and Booze Ratherfraud did like control and being leader. And today's GB are even worse,they would like to be able to tell you when to piss, and when to think about pissing.

    Whereas for Christians it should be "One is your leader, the Christ"

    love

    Wobble

    p.s it will be good to meet both you and Cantleave in the flesh dear Nugget, until then, have a good Christmas and New Year , CHEERS !

  • acolytes
    acolytes

    Hi Wobble

    If we agree that Paul never meant to start a High Control group.

    Have his teachings indirectly led to that?

    Was what was written about Jesus not enough?

    Acolytes

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