Does Eccl. 9:5 Mean What the WT Says It Does?

by Perry 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Cold Steel

  Ecclesiastes is not an eschatological book, but a philosophical one. I do not believe all books of the Bible to have equal weight and this book's outlook on human existence is dreadfully cyncial and supercilious. If one wishes to know what happens after death, I recommend the New Testament view that the spirit puts off the body as it does a garment. As Jesus' body lay in the tomb, his spirit went to preach to the "spirits in prison," which were disobedient in the days of Noah. He did not go to heaven, and neither did the thief on the cross. Jesus also taught the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Ah, but that's just a parable, some may say, and yet when did Jesus ever give a parable that wasn't true to life?

  When the apostles asked Jesus, "Lord, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind," can anyone miss the implication? The apostles assumed not only that the spirit had existence beyond the grave, but before birth as well. In everything that has been learned from ancient texts discovered in the last one hundred years, none proceeds from the premise that man does not have an immortal spirit.

  Without the Ecclesiastes reference, the notion that man doesn't have a spirit pretty much falls on its face. The writer believes that everything is futile that man does, a notion that is not taught anywhere else in scripture. Jesus never refers to it in his sayings as he did other prophets, like Isaiah.

  As far as the words for "breath" and "spirit" are concerned, yes, they can be used interchangably in either Hebrew or Greek. The trick, then, is to guess correctly. Most Christian scholars have said, yes, man does seem to have an immortal spirit. I not only believe man has a spirit, but that animals also possess spirits. Paul writes: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirits, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16) Here and elsewhere, it's implied that spirit not only has intelligence but gleans intelligence from the Spirit of God.

  I don't find a great deal of wisdom in Ecclesiastes; rather, it seems to have been written by someone who has been beaten up by life and has made plenty of wrong decisions along the way. He speaks relentlessly on the futility and the meaninglessness of life; that it's fleeting and transitory, and then it's over. The Gospel of Christ should dispel such notions, for it proclaims that life can be rich and meaningful.

  It remains a topic of debate, but that's my take.
• 

  Perry

  Thanks for everyone's comments. You all have a Happy Thanksgiving!!
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  jonathan dough

  Regarding Ecc. 9:5 and 10

  The Jehovah's Witnesses' theory that nothing exists of man after death is premised primarily on a handful of Old Testament verses, once again taken out of context while ignoring other relevant passages. For instance,

  … there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (nether world NAB) to which you are going (Ecclesiastes 9:10, RSV)

  His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish (Psalm 146:4)

  For the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost (Ecclesiastes 9:5, RSV)

  The Jehovah's Witnesses reason that if a dead person knows nothing and has no thoughts because thoughts perish at death, he cannot be conscious and must therefore be extinct, non-existent. A superficial reading might lead one to that conclusion, be we know that's not the case because the departed, such as the Old Testament rephaim or “shades,” as outlined in great detail above, are indeed conscious and can think, communicate and exhibit other cognitive skills. Contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' incorrect interpretation, these thoughts, knowledge, rewards, etc. refer to those human traits while on earth, “under the sun,” not in the immediate afterlife, the intermediate state where conscious departed souls dwell. This is made abundantly clear in verse 6 following Ecclesiastes 9:5:

  Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun. (Psalm 9:6, RSV) (emphasis added).

  You can read the entire argument here:

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-5.html
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  Ding

  For the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost (Ecclesiastes 9:5, RSV) Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:6, RSV) (emphasis added) Citing these two verses just quoted by Jonathan Dough, I have asked JWs, "If Ecclesiastes is Jehovah's revelation of what happens after death (as opposed to an expression of the writer's cynical view of the meaninglessness of life), don't these two verses prove that there will be no resurrection and no paradise earth?" In fact, if Eccesiastes is Jehovah's declaration of truth (as opposed to the writer's cynical view), why would anyone read past Ecclesiastes 1:2, which tells us that everything is meaningless? This illustrates the danger in ripping verses out of context to use as proof texts, something the WTS does all the time.
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  jonathan dough

  don't these two verses prove that there will be no resurrection and no paradise earth?"

  It doesn't mean there won't be a resurrecton, just not the one they envision, on earth in paradise, but heavenly or in hell, however that is defined.

  Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun. (Psalm 9:6, RSV) (emphasis added).

  Verse 6 completely undermines the Jehovah's Witnesses' multiple salvation plans. They believe that a ruling elite of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will eventually reign from heaven over a vast multitude of converted Jehovah's Witnesses on earth. For the majority of mankind, the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation mantra is, “You can live forever in paradise on earth.” But Ecclesiastes 9:6 just quoted makes that impossible. If the dead “never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (on earth), they cannot live forever in paradise on earth. Mainstream Christianity averts this conundrum because they recognize that the Christian's supernatural reward is in heaven for all redeemed believers. It most certainly is not limited to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-5.html