Predestination and the 144K

by cameo-d 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  cameo-d

  Romans 8:29

  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

  So according to this, only certain people are chosen for a predestination.

  How are their images conformed? Have they been genetically manipulated? Are there other "virgin births" that we have not heard of?

  Romans 8:30

  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

  So if all of these special predestinated people are walking around, and they are supposed to be like replicas of christ...where are they? What have they been doing for the betterment of humanity? What are their names?

  Oh, are these the ones that are supposed to show up as our new leaders as soon as the religious zealots shake the wordly governments out of power?

  Are these supposed to be the 144K? And did that 144K emerge over a period of time or are they all supposed to be just appearing at the beginning of the "new system"?

  Preachers have always claimed to "have the calling". And many have believed that their religious leaders have this "special annointing" from god. So, having seen this self proclaimed specialness used to selfish advantage, are we to believe some new group in the future that claims to be The Chosen Elect?

  Are you gonna believe it when some group takes power and claims to be the 144K?
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  Larsinger58

  ISA 6:13

  The "tree" represents the entire kingdom. This tree illustration is found in the NT where gentile wild olive branches are grafted into the spaces where the unfaithful Jews were left off. However, as Isa 6:13 shows, some remnant of the Jews remain as the ROOT and that is accorded 10%.

  This 10% root is what makes up the 144K. That means the entire number of anointed/elect are 10X 144K = 1,440,000!!

  Just for the record.

  Now doesn't 1,440,000 king-priests make more sense than just 144K going to heaven?

  LS
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  cameo-d

  OK...since 144K seems to trigger some kind of roadblock with JWs and x JWs...lets just forget that part.

  What do you all make of the qualifications for predestination as per quote above?
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  EverAStudent

  Not sure if you are asking only for the WTS perspective, or opinions in general.

  From the evangelical Christian perspective: all those who "get saved" are those who have been "predestined" to salvation. That is the only thing that the phrase means to an evangelical Christian. Predestination is the same as "elected" or "pre-chosen." In other words, God planned out how to save people and which people to save before He created Adam and Eve (read Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 13:8).

  In general all people are called to repent and get saved. Jesus went throughout Israel calling on everyone to repent (read Mark 1:14-15). Only some people will respond, and this is also termed being "called" (see 2 Thessalonians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:2-9, Romans 11:29, Jude 1:1, 1 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 9:15, 2 Timothy 1:9, 1 Timothy 6:12, Ephesians 4:1-4, 1 Corinthians 7:22). Those who respond by getting saved are those who were predestined (pre-chosen) by God.

  Those who are called to salvation are conformed to the image of Christ, that is, we are to act like He acted. We are to be holy and serve God (Philippians 1:6).

  It is important to remember that we serve God not to gain favor or to try to merit salvation or to win Him over. We already have the guarantee of salvation once we believe in Him for salvation (Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22). We serve God solely because we are thankful / grateful for being guaranteed salvation:

  Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:28-29)
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  EndofMysteries

  You are on the right track, there is some bible truth your starting to discover. You'll probably want to relook at the bible prophecies of the last days, and also you may notice that there are different types of 'holy spirit', or what may be thought of as 'holy spirit'.

  If you posted this because your researching and finding out some things, would love to talk to ya. Looking for those who are getting this 'real light'.
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  cameo-d

  Endof Mysteries: "If you posted this because your researching and finding out some things, would love to talk to ya. Looking for those who are getting this 'real light'."

  'Real light' from a naked bulb is rather vulgar.

  The point of my post is this: Will you believe it when a group comes forth to claim that they were born predestined by god to lead the human race? Will you believe in the new Kingdom of God government lead by some group that calls themselves the Sons of God?
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  EndofMysteries

  It won't be done that way.

  When conditions of the world make today look like a golden age, and nobody has the answers or understanding. When worldwide there are people who do not know eachother nor are associated together in anyway but are shining and giving understanding and yet separate are in agreement and the same message, then you will know.
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  cameo-d

  EndofMysteries: " yet separate are in agreement and the same message"

  That sounds rather idealistic. I cannot fathom that all people would be in agreement. Not ever.

  Do you still see this future as being headed in some way by an organization?
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  cameo-d

  C.T. Russell is noted to have privately admitted his belief that he was chosen for his great work before his birth. The Finished Mystery. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. 1917, p. 53. A testimony speech given by his sister at the Put-In-Bay Convention where she said similar things is commented on the The Laodicean Messenger, pp. 179-180.

  http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bloodlines/russell.htm
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  Chalam

  Hello cameo,

  So according to this, only certain people are chosen for a predestination.

  Yes, welcome to Calvinism

  How are their images conformed? Have they been genetically manipulated? Are there other "virgin births" that we have not heard of?

  No, we are all made in the image of Adam (sinful man) Romans 3:23, save Jesus who was the second or last Adam and "knew no sin" 2 Corinthians 5:21

  Romans 8:30

  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

  So if all of these special predestinated people are walking around, and they are supposed to be like replicas of christ...where are they? What have they been doing for the betterment of humanity? What are their names?

  Anyone who is born again becomes a "replica of Christ".

  Romans 8:29 (New International Version)

  29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

  Oh, are these the ones that are supposed to show up as our new leaders as soon as the religious zealots shake the wordly governments out of power?

  No

  Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

  12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  Are these supposed to be the 144K? And did that 144K emerge over a period of time or are they all supposed to be just appearing at the beginning of the "new system"?

  The 144, 000 come into play at the Great Tribulation. Personally, I believe what the bible says, they are Jews and there is 144, 000 them! Revelation 7

  Preachers have always claimed to "have the calling". And many have believed that their religious leaders have this "special annointing" from god. So, having seen this self proclaimed specialness used to selfish advantage, are we to believe some new group in the future that claims to be The Chosen Elect?

  All are called, but only some are predestined Matthew 22:14 Romans 9

  This is another difficult thing to understand and don't think you can get your head fully round it unless you are God.

  Are you gonna believe it when some group takes power and claims to be the 144K?

  The church could well be gone by then, depends id you believe in a pre-trib rapture or not? Matthew 24:40-42 Luke 17:34-36

  Blessings, St