butterflyleia check your pm
Trinity, 144,000, Earthly Paradise, and 1914 ...hmmm
by Butterflyleia85 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Butterflyleia85
K, austin.. well do.
Wow thanks guys I will have to go through everything one at a time... But I'm glad to see many views on the subject! This will help alot with my research, Thanks! Alot to read so hold on about the Responces to each of you guys...
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Butterflyleia85
BluesBrother, yeah it will take alot of time! Thank you for the support in my direction of belief... :)
Chalam... Yelp I have read New Testament that is actually part of the NWT bible, we have both old and new in it.
As far as John 17 the in you is Jehovah, in me as his servant and in them as his followers, Jesus was talking about him being a minister of Jehovah and that he prays for his prophest and all other people that believe in God and in Jesus words and example.
I can only relate that to when the elders pray for the pineers and pass down their skill and knowledge like Jesus did.
I use to take 144,000 literal because of what I was taught by JW but now I question the matter.
No-one will be in heaven... NOT even God!! I'm so confused why you say that, the scripiture is just saying that while in the past (or now becaue the Revelation is talking what will be held in the future) God had no direct contact with his people , he will provide that then. Thanks Stephen. :)
Thanks Black Sheep-Chris I will check out that sight.
Interesting JosephMalik, thank you for showing me the website, it was alot to read but I did read what I can... I will probably go back and read some more. The images helped me see how people understand the trinity, which I feel is weird but I'm not to judge.
When you explained your beleifs on 144,000, you said, Jews did not use this word [heaven] the way many do today. To them it meant God for the most part or what God sanctions.
So were you saying you believe Heave is a God like the Jews? Now that's very confusing to me, but as far as the rest of the beleifs you have, sounds like we agree on! :)
PSacramento wow you were the easiest to understand. Very interesting, thanks for that. But in stead of taking the Trinity doctrine from pagin beleif why couldn't they call it Spiritual Relm and make chains off of that. I hope God isn't to anal that that would affend him... same with holidays and all the other little pitty stuff JW "unintentionally" like to judge others for.
Ah... yeah sounds like shouldn't be complicating, Deputy Dog. So how do you understand Trinity to be? My fiance beleives in the trinity too.
glenster... I will check out the webpage thanks. ...wallrides in VC... eh... I will try and figure out what your talking about. haha
peacedog... "a real Bible... eh" nope I like using fake bibles. hahaha 144,000 and small number that I was mentioning or 144,000 and small group that JW's teach, that you believe to be in "heaven"?? and you mentioned real Bible will did you forget all the scriptures that use "earth" as a hope for the future? 1914 is not in the Bible it was a prodiction date, duh. Just like Trinity isn't in the Bible. Hell is grave because yelp "I said so". lol I'm God and my word means something. lol jk jk Any who... the Bible uses words that refured hell as burning in fire... thus grave will be done away with. That's what I was pointed to in the Bible. And I do like your scriptures... Very good. According the the WT$, they taught Jesus was here teaching his disciples God's word and that he was God's Son. I wonder where you got that WT$ says Jesus is teaching disciples pagan concepts?? I don't believe in disfellowshipment, judging other, and 1914... or any other for sure dates they set.
Thanks again for your guy's help! :)
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Chalam
Hi Butterfly,
Chalam... Yelp I have read New Testament that is actually part of the NWT bible, we have both old and new in it.
Whether the NWT deserves being called a bible is debatable
As far as John 17 the in you is Jehovah, in me as his servant and in them as his followers, Jesus was talking about him being a minister of Jehovah and that he prays for his prophest and all other people that believe in God and in Jesus words and example.
For me, the "in you", "in me" and "in them" is referring to the Holy Spirit, by whom we all are one, see here for example
1 Peter 2:4-6 (New International Version)
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
I use to take 144,000 literal because of what I was taught by JW but now I question the matter.
Good. You need to question everything the WT taught you. In fact, you need to throw it all away and start again.
No-one will be in heaven... NOT even God!! I'm so confused why you say that, the scripiture is just saying that while in the past (or now becaue the Revelation is talking what will be held in the future) God had no direct contact with his people , he will provide that then. Thanks Stephen. :)
Revelation 21:2-3 (New International Version)
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God
Quite simply, the city comes down "out of heaven" onto the earth. This is the dwelling place for men and God will live with them, on earth.
Hope that helps?
Blessings,
Stephen
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peacedog
Butterflyleia85 said:
peacedog... "a real Bible... eh" nope I like using fake bibles. hahaha 144,000 and small number that I was mentioning or 144,000 and small group that JW's teach, that you believe to be in "heaven"?? and you mentioned real Bible will did you forget all the scriptures that use "earth" as a hope for the future? 1914 is not in the Bible it was a prodiction date, duh. Just like Trinity isn't in the Bible. Hell is grave because yelp "I said so". lol I'm God and my word means something. lol jk jk Any who... the Bible uses words that refured hell as burning in fire... thus grave will be done away with. That's what I was pointed to in the Bible. And I do like your scriptures... Very good. According the the WT$, they taught Jesus was here teaching his disciples God's word and that he was God's Son. I wonder where you got that WT$ says Jesus is teaching disciples pagan concepts?? I don't believe in disfellowshipment, judging other, and 1914... or any other for sure dates they set.
Let me respond to each of your points:
>> "a real Bible... eh nope I like using fake bibles"
Yes, a real Bible. As in a bible produced by actual scholars of the Greek language, unlike the NWT.
>> "144,000 and small number that I was mentioning or 144,000 and small group that JW's teach, that you believe to be in "heaven"??"
I'm not sure I follow you here.
My original point was that there is not a "small number that goes to heaven" as you originally stated. Revelation puts both groups (great crowd and 144k) in heaven. Both are "before the throne". The angels, the seven spirits, the 24 elders, the seven lamps, the great crowd, and the 144k - all are "before the throne".
Could you show me the verse that says the "great crowd" is on the earth and not in heaven? Then I can compare that verse with the verses that say the "great crowd" is "standing before the throne" and that they serve God "day and night in his temple" (Gr: naos = temple sanctuary; the Holy place and the Holy of Holies)
>> "did you forget all the scriptures that use "earth" as a hope for the future"
If you have scriptures to share, let's see them. I offered two verses that show conclusively that the future hope of believers is heaven:
If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. (Heb 11:15,16)
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 8:11)
Here's two more:
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil 1:23-24)
Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil 3:19-20)
I also referred to verses in Revelation that put the great crowd and the 144k in the same location: before the throne, in heaven.
To prove your WT belief, you'll need to refute these verses. I await your response.
>> "1914 is not in the Bible it was a prodiction date, duh."
Yes, it was a prediction. A prediction for Armageddon. You said "I still don't understand why 1914 is off". It's "off" because Armageddon didn't happen. In fact nothing happened in October 1914.
Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you don't see anything incorrect with the WT view of 1914.
>> "Just like Trinity isn't in the Bible."
Perhaps the word itself isn't in the bible. Neither is the word "Theocracy". Does that make the concept unscriptural?
>> "the Bible uses words that refured hell as burning in fire... thus grave will be done away with."
Lol, that's crazy talk. Seriously. The bible doesn't refer to hell as "burning in fire". It refers to hell as burning *WITH* fire.
The bible speaks of people as being in AGONY in this burning place. How does a person being in AGONY and TORMENT in any way indicate that the "grave will be done away with"?
Your argument makes no sense.
>> "I wonder where you got that WT$ says Jesus is teaching disciples pagan concepts"
According to the WT$, the origins of a fiery hell are PAGAN: "Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt" (Reasoning book).
So tell me why the Son of God would propagate these PAGAN DOCTRINES:
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (Luke 16:22-25)
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
(Mark 9:42-48)It's absurd to believe that the Son of God would teach his disciples using Pagan concepts and doctrines. But that's exactly what you and the WT$ would have people believe.
The Reasoning book goes on to say: "But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the devil, which name means "Slanderer"), the one whom Jesus Christ called "the father of the lie."
WT$ says: "the fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God"
Jesus said: "In hell, where he was in torment"
Nuff said.
peace
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Butterflyleia85
1 Peter 2:4-6 (New International Version)
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."I'm sorry no where in this scripture I saw it say Holy Spirit is "in you", "in me", "in them" and I don't see how this proves the trinity???
Though I do believe holy spirit by God provides power.
I understand this scripture to be, "come to him" or come to Jesus, "the living stone" or Jesus that supports the spiritual temple/group (something firm & solid),
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
This scripture just supports the spiritual group I was talking about earlier. As far as holy spirit look up Matt 3:11 and Acts. 2:17,38,41. The spirit mentioned here is not a person or beening. It has no personality it just a active force that gives power. This is not equal to God but part of God.
Ok Geez I didn't mean to preach but I guess the only way to dig at my believes I have to tell you why I believe... but maybe there is a catch to my belief... I mean many people believe strongly in things doesn't mean it's right...
Any who as far as throwing my only means of spiritual guidance ...lets not get to hasty... There is a scripture I use to share with others that didn't have my same beliefs... Prov. 2:3-5. So know matter if you use a different Bible then mine you will still find knowledge of God.
Revelation 21:2-3 (New International Version)
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God
Quite simply, the city comes down "out of heaven" onto the earth. This is the dwelling place for men and God will live with them, on earth.
Now that part I can see.
Thanks again Stephen
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Chalam
Hi Butterfly,
OK cool. One down, one to go :)
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one,Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Verse 21 is a Trinitarian verse. Just like these
Matthew 28:19 (New International Version)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 13:14 (New International Version)
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Here are some verses on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
OK, see here
Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
One Holy Spirit ("Spirit of God", "Spirit of Christ"), one God, three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit ("he who raised Christ from the dead". "who lives in you").
Hope that helps?
Blessings,
Stephen
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Butterflyleia85
Peacedog, I might take you up on that! I never actually compared the two Bibles personally I just relied on my grant aunt's word and this sister at the hall that only used King James Bible... they said there was no difference in the bible except the language. But yes that would be nice to see old english bible...
(btw I do hope I didn't offend you on here, the above statement was my sense of humor, just to lighten up the tense subject)
(Matt. 6:9-10)
(Rev. 5:9-10)
Rev. 7:9
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
(Rev. 14:3)
Matt. 5:5
5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
Ps. 37:11
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Is. 45:18
18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
(Rev. 21:3)
...so there is some scriptures I found... BUT I do find what you are saying... as far as "earth" could it also be symbolic when it is used in the Revelation book, sense most of that book isn't taken literal?? Or I also see the opposite happening could it be that the spiritual relm is coming to the literal earth??
Yes, it was a prediction. A prediction for Armageddon. You said "I still don't understand why 1914 is off". It's "off" because Armageddon didn't happen. In fact nothing happened in October 1914.
I agree nothing happened in Oct. 1914 but in my life as a JW I was always understood that it was the beginning of "the last days".
But the Bible had foretold the opposite—that the unprecedented war of 1914 to 1918 would highlight the beginning of "the last days." (2 Timothy 3:1) (ce Chapt.18 page 227 par. 31)
I never understood how they predicted the date really because nothing major happened in that year thus I never understood why it was off if it was a invisiable even that was in heaven... so I asumed it must had be how the dates was calculated in the Bible... again trusting in my grandpa (passed away 1999) and all other teachers of the Bible at the halls of JW.
Hell -
Rev. 20:14,15
14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.
The wicked or ones not found written in the book of life is going to be destroyed. "lake of fire" is destruction
Luke 16:19-31 isn't literal.
If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself. (rs page 174 par. 5)
The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (Luke 16:14) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matt. 21:31,32) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised. (Acts 5:33; 7:42) (rs page 175 par.1)
It's absurd to believe that the Son of God would teach his disciples using Pagan concepts and doctrines. But that's exactly what you and the WT$ would have people believe.
The Reasoning book goes on to say: "But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the devil, which name means "Slanderer"), the one whom Jesus Christ called "the father of the lie."
Let me get this very clear! I am not Jehovah's Witness and they don't want me claiming that anyways. I would NOT have people believe anything... they believe what they want to believe! I personally go with the idea that Hell is not literal because of the scriptures I found...
And for one you are a putting words in peoples mouths JW do NOT beleive Son of God teaches his disciples Pagan concepts and doctrines! It's affensive and insulting, my grandma and mother and alot of good hearted people are JWs. They are just ignorant. And you are being disrespectful when you say such a thing!
Can we start again... with a positive decussion on the matter. I am a nice person really but I do stand up for good people and for understanding people.
Respectfully
butterfly
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Butterflyleia85
Thank you Chalam! That does help alot! I see how the trinity is taken and it's very interesting!
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
this is the Holy Spirit correct? God's holy spirit though... If it was a person it would talk, display a personality, right... I do understand now how the belief of trinity exist, though. Thanks again, Stephen.
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PSacramento
The HS is not just God's HS, it is Jesus's HS also.
The HS feels, indeed the vert greek word and even hebrew wrod for spirit means somethinng "alive" and "feeling", it denots emotion.
OT:ruwach
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7307&t=KJV
NT: pneuma
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4151&t=KJV