They can explain EVERYTHiNG...

by AwSnap 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AwSnap

    1 Samuel 31:4 & 2 Samuel 1:10

    I asked a jw about these two scriptures. They looked it up & said, "well, OBVIOUSLY, the Amalekite was lying!" ....although it doesn't say that. What are your thoughts? Is this proof that the Bible is not true, or does the following article make sense?

    w60 pg.415

    How can the apparent contradiction between 1 Samuel31:4 and 2 Samuel1:10 be harmonized?—L.G.,


    The record at 1 Samuel 31:4 reads: “Then Saul said to his armor-bearer: ‘Draw your sword and run me through with it, that these uncircumcised men may not come and certainly run me through and deal abusively with me.’ And his armor-bearer was unwilling, because he was very much afraid. So Saul took the sword and fell upon it.” At 2 Samuel 1:10 we have the words of an Amalekite addressed to David, claiming to have killed King Saul at his request: “So I stood over him and definitely put him to death, for I knew he could not live after he had fallen.”

    A little reflection will make it all clear. On the one hand we have the inspired record, most likely by the prophets Nathan and Gad, telling just how King Saul died. They report it as a fact. On the other hand we have the claim of a pagan, an unknown youth of the Amalekites, which contradicts the divine record. Is there any reason for doubting the record of the inspired writers? No, there is not. Is there any reason for doubting the words of the pagan youth? Yes, there is, for it is reasonable to conclude that he was trying to curry the favor of David by posing as the slayer of the one who sought David’s life during his lifetime. What he said was therefore a deliberate falsehood. However, instead of getting him into the favor of David, it so aroused David’s wrath that he ordered the youth to be slain for having killed Jehovah’s anointed.—2 Sam. 1:15, 16.

  • wobble

    Intersting that the old mind-control, or propaganda, comes into their answer, the Amalekite was pagan and therefore lying, yea right ,all non Yahweh worshippers lie all the time, and the faithful never got anything wrong.



  • DaCheech

    i remember that assembly drama well in the 80's.

    could not understand why he would kill someone who did as he was told!

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    hmmm. I'm not familiar with this "controversy" but the first thing I thought of was that maybe the falling on the sword was not enough and the youth only heeded his pleas and put him out of his misery. The first assisted suicide?


  • AwSnap

    I'm not familiar with this "controversy" but the first thing I thought of was that maybe the falling on the sword was not enough and the youth only heeded his pleas and put him out of his misery. Ohhhhh, it's a controversy alright. A scandelous controversy. Actually, it's just something that popped out at me & I checked it out on the WT Library after my jw conversation. Personally, I agree with the cynical comment above about "of COURSE the pagan was a liar" *sigh*. To me, it does seem like a screw-up, especially considering that Samuel supposedly wrote 2 books (with the help of Nathan & Gad, right?). Why didn't he specify which was truth? Why make people assume & guess? I was feeling a little frusterated when I started this thread because jw's can seriously manipulate everything to their liking. I have no problem with Christians (Like Chalam, PSacramento, & Granny Gough....but NOT SOB SOM) & so I was just wondering how they feel about this scripture as well.

  • glenster

    According to Google:

    Ask me anything--absolutely anything.

    The meaning of life:
    The meaning of life is exactly...and not one little bit more or little bit
    less, but exactly...what you think it means, and what I think it means or anyone
    else thinks it means or even God thinks it means doesn't make any damn differ-
    ence. You might think 2 and 2 is 4 or think it's 5, but if that's what it means
    to you, that's what it means to you, and that's the meaning of life. It takes
    less time to explain than how to build a bicycle. So don't go looking for a
    Swami on a hill, now you know.

  • ssn587

    This looks like shades of Japanese Seppuku performed, Saul falls on his sword and the you man ensures he is dead. As you no good deed goes unpunished.

  • villabolo

    Awsnap, there are plenty of contradictions in the Bible but some are not worth pointing out because they can be easily rationalized. A much harder contradiction to rationalize is 2 Samuel 10:18 compared to 1Chronicles 19:18 in the NWT or the New American Standard Bible.

    From the New American Standard Bible:

    18 But the Arameans fled before Israel, and David killed (T ) 700 charioteers of the Arameans and 40,000 horsemen . . . (1 Ch 19:18)

    18 The Arameans fled before Israel, and David killed of the Arameans 7,000 charioteers and 40,000 foot soldiers . . . (2 Sa 10:18)

    The New International Version seems to have deliberately mistranslated in 1 Chronicles 19:18 as foot soldier and thus obscuring half of the contradiction but there remains, in that version, the issue of the 700 versus 7,000 chariots.


  • glenster

    2 Samuel 10:18 (New International Version)
    "18 But they fled before Israel, and David killed seven hundred of their
    charioteers and forty thousand of their foot soldiers. [a] He also struck down
    Shobach the commander of their army, and he died there."

    "1 Chronicles 19:18 (New International Version)
    18 But they fled before Israel, and David killed seven thousand of their
    charioteers and forty thousand of their foot soldiers. He also killed Shophach
    the commander of their army."

    One theory is the bigger number is due to scribal error in Hebrew with the
    dots that indicated how many thousands and were put over letters.

    Another theory is that the Hebrew word eleph can mean thousand or unit (as in
    family, tribe, clan, cattle, etc.--Judges 6:15; 1 Sam.10:19-21,18:51, etc.)
    700 charioteers could be referred to in the other verse as 7 military units of
    charioteers. This theory holds that a scribe would be unlikely to to confuse
    the number 100 with 1,000. See other examples of the same difference at the next

    Another theory is that David got the credit as the leader for the charioteers
    his army killed, and both passages in the Greek Septuagint indicate that 1,000
    chariots and 7,000 horsemen were captured. The smaller number in Hebrew could
    refer to part of the larger number--those who were killed outright in the
    battle, and the bigger number in later Hebrew could add those who died later as
    a result of the battle. The later deaths could be due to a forceful stop to an
    uprising on the part of those captured and/or due to the fact that in most wars
    there are greater deaths from wounds leading to fatalities or fatal illness apart
    from the battlefield. The later Greek then used that number for both passages.

    (I made the latter part of the last one up myself. Worse than a quick death
    in those wars was to linger and develop some form of ailment, like rickets, then
    die, which was all the more terrifying to the townspeople.)

  • AwSnap

    Glenster, you probably would win at Balderdash with that last part. Are there any books that show ALL of the contradictions in the Bible?

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