What really is the biblical support for this major doctrine of the WT society? When I was still a pioneer, we met a young lady at her door, crying and holding a small disabled baby, asking for an explanation. My friend, it was his turn at the door, started to mumble something about universal sovereignity. The lady literally threw us out, for a reason. I was so ashamed. Many times after that I was about to ring the bell again but just could not. An elder in the congregation reminded me about parents taking their kid to a painful operation (from the WT book You can live in paradise...) but that was no explanation: the parents do so because they are not almighty and have no other choice. Back to the WT explanation... so I wrote this story:
Jehovah, small Jesus and Satan are sitting at a sandbox.
Jesus says to Satan: My father built this sandbox.
Satan replies: Jehovah is my father too, my mom said so.
Jesus to Jehovah: Is that true? Does my mom know?
Jehovah to Jesus: Well, boy, when you grow up, you'll learn about some things... oh shit, those ants are climbing my leg.... they do not respect the Lord of creation...
Jesus to Jehovah: Dad, you did not answer my question, do not change the topic!
Jehovah to Jesus: My son, go to the ants... (Proverbs 6:6), you can learn many things from them.
Jesus answers: Dad, let those ants be. And they are not evil. You did not answer me.
Jehovah gets nervous: I shall get a hosepipe and rinse those ants to hell.
Satan is smiling...
Jesus goes to his Father: Dad, please do not put your anger on the ants...
After the sandbox is flushed, Jehovah seems more calm.
Soon after that, the ants are building up something again...
Jesus likes that: Look, dad, at the ants and get wise (Proverbs 6:6), you cannot prevent them!
Jehovah gets furious: Those ants shall know that I am Jehovah! (Ezekiel 36:23)
Satan gets hilarious...
Jehovah runs into the house to get some ant poison.
Soon after the ants get confused in their building project.
Jehovah boasts: What do you say now? Who rules?
Jesus answers: I still like the ants. Tell me, Dad, why is it not so that I could die but they not?
Jehovah thinks a while: Do not be silly, boy. Things like that only happen in fairy tales.
Jesus continues: Dad, is Satan really my brother?
Jehovah replies: Well boy, it just happened that...
Satans gets back: Jesus, guess what, whose money was used to buy me a new bicycle?
Jehovah admits to Jesus: ...eh... Satan is your brother, really.
Jesus looks at Satan and hugs him: Now I understand why you sometimes are jealous of dad. My dear brother!
Jehovah admits: I may have neglected you, Satan.
Jesus says to Jehovah and Satan: Dad, let us all be friends. Also let the ants live their own life free! They are innocent and brought by chance on our yard.
Jehovah replies: Out of the mouths of babes... (Matthew 21:16)
Jesus rejoices: And also Satan can play in this sandbox with us and go to and fro in it and walk up and down in it! (Job 1:7)
Jehovah and Satan and universal sovereignity - so what?
by DrJohnStMark 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
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DrJohnStMark
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darth frosty
If thats really what they want to hang their hat on its a dead deal. You cant get out of the book of Genesis and satan proves h was right.
Look at the account at genesis 3 with the fruit. The serpent was the one telling the truth that man would be like god and god admits it.
Gen 3 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of ( X ) Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from ( Y ) the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
Than with the tower of babel god failed. Because man was unified in one cause this is what god did:
Gen 11 6 The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have (G) the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
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Doug Mason
Another question is: was Satan male or female?
If Satan was female, what was the relationship between YHWH and Satan?
Does Satan trick through feminine allure?
Doug
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VoidEater
If there is such an issue as universal sovereignty, this is a stupid way to discharge the bet.
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HintOfLime
Not to mention, as Darth pointed out, God's constantly rigs the experiment. In effect - every time humans show promise, God interferes. It's like playing chess against someone that angrily grabs and throws your pieces off the board whenever you make a good move.
The whole 'humans governing themselves' experiment proves absolutely nothing - God invalided the experiment by immediately and repeatedly interfering with it.
Just more evidence (if you believe universal sovereignty is a core issue) the bible is the product of ignornat men, and not intellegent beings. Any sort of wise God would never have done an experiment in this manner (even we humans have a sense of ethics), and Satan would have cried fowl immediately at God's manipulation of the experiement.
- Lime
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DrJohnStMark
You cant get out of the book of Genesis and satan proves h was right.
I remember looking at the figures of the WT book True peace and security – how can you find it? (1986, a 2nd edition of an older book) and in those Satan looks much more intelligent and dynamic than poor Jesus (do not have a copy any more).
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sspo
Only JW's twist Job's account and Genesis to make the issue about sovereignty.
If the almighty is the creator and all powerful and wise, there is no need to prove anything to humans.
According to the watchtower he's very insecure.
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dinah
They make their God sound like a pouting child, which makes me doubt his existence at all. People pray to him, yet he gives some people a big FU for an answer. And I'm supposed to CHOOSE him for a father? Child, please.
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moshe
Universal sovereignty is a manufactured dogma- a strawman argument, if you will, made in order to create a religion and give it's leaders wealth and power over it's members. The Garden of Eden story is metaphor, not literal fact.
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WTWizard
I cannot understand why a loving God would drag us into His issues. The whole thing is supposed to be between God and Satan, and by dragging us into the fight, all He has done was to introduce problems into the whole human race. This makes me think of Satan as being the righteous one that wanted to set mankind free of God's tyranny, and God as the Bully that wants mankind in His tyranny. And, when Satan set man free, God proceeded to recapture the human race--this time, using this issue to introduce the same tyranny.
And, since God dragged me into this argument without my permission, I am taking Satan's side. Satan tried to set us free from God's tyranny--and would have succeeded, were it not for that Almighty Sore Loser recapturing mankind.