Why don’t more Christians invoke a JW-style “Satan argument” when debating why God allows suffering?

by Half a Person 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Half a Person

  I have just been watched the first part of a sort-of “theist vs atheist” debate on Youtube featuring Christopher Hitchens.

  What struck me is that in all of these types of debates that I’ve seen, the Christians, when faced with the question “Why does God allow suffering”, never really provide any sort of satisfying answer. It’s usually something along the lines of:

  “Our question shouldn’t be ‘What is *God* doing’, but, rather, we should ask ourselves: ‘What am *I* doing?’” (avoiding the question)

  “These sort of things are a test.” (as if suffering was some sort of self-improvement programme.)

  “When people do bad things, they must face the consequences of their actions.” (in other words – “It’s your fault!” This doesn’t really explain earthquakes, though.)

  “God *has* intervened before, but doesn’t do it too much, because he allows humans to have free will.” (But how does this explain e.g. terminal illnesses which aren’t caused by free will?)

  A JW would answer by saying that the world is currently ruled by Satan (1 John 5:19), “because how could Satan offer Jesus ‘all the kingdoms of the world’ unless they were his to offer?’” (Matt 4:8, 9). Then they would probably pluck a few verses from all over the bible (Daniel 2:44, Revelation 21:3, 4) to show that God has big plans for the future, when He’s going to “sort everything out.”

  To me, the JW version at least makes some sense. The person listening to the JW argument could react like this:

  “Oh, I see. So God knows about all the problems in the world, he’s upset by them, it’s not his fault, he has a plan and he’s going to do something about it soon™. That makes sense.”

  Whereas the reaction to the non-JW argument might be something like:

  “Oh, I see. God knows about all the problems in the world, but he just lets them happen anyway. He has a plan, we don’t know all the details, but just trust him, OK? The most important thing is to count your blessings, and serve him.”

  Which (in my opinion), doesn’t really work as an explanation. I mean, if God’s *in charge* of the world, then why does it look like it does at the moment? If he’s *in control*, the least he could do is cut back on the earthquakes.

  So I was just thinking, seeing as though all Christians have access to verses like 1 John 5:19 (“the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one”), why don’t they use them in their arguments against atheists? Surely the “wicked ruler Satan” explanation is better than the “God of puzzling inaction” explanation?

  Disclaimer: I probably fit into the category of “atheist” myself.
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  teel

  I think a large mainstream Christian denomination can't use that argument because Satan having "the whole world" would mean he has most of their church too. A small group, like JWs can fit the "whole world" as being "except us".
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  Deputy Dog

  Half a Person

  “Why does God allow suffering”,

  Asking the question that way treats God as Half a God. The question really is; why does God CAUSE suffering? The answer is He said he would.

  In Genesis Adam and all of mankind is cursed by God. God doesn't owe anyone life. The amazing thing is that He allows life.

  Gen 3:17

  Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

  “When people do bad things, they must face the consequences of their actions.” (in other words – “It’s your fault!” This doesn’t really explain earthquakes, though.)

  Well, eh... yes it does. You may not like it, but, we all derserve death and hell.

  Isa 45:7

  The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. NASB

  Isa 45:7

  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things . KJV

  Maybe the question should be; why does God bless anyone at all? He doesn't owe us a thing.
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  designs

  Ah, the good ol KJV, now it makes sense where this 'why does God bless anyone' and people 'deserve Hell' stuff is coming from.

  A little couse in Judaism might be helpful here, study: Yetzer Tob and Yetzer Ha-Rah 'why do we build houses and marry, and engage in trade' asks the Mishnah.
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  Sad emo

  There's a lot of ground to cover in addressing your question HaP! I'll try to tackle a few now and maybe write a bit more later.

  “Our question shouldn’t be ‘What is *God* doing’, but, rather, we should ask ourselves: ‘What am *I* doing?’” (avoiding the question)

  Why is that avoiding the question? Lets face it - whether you have a belief in God or not, there ARE situations which we CAN sort out ourselves. For example, many lack food, water, sanitation, housing and healthcare in this world because OTHERS won't share their excess.

  “These sort of things are a test.” (as if suffering was some sort of self-improvement programme.)

  They can be. Is it a form of self-improvement? That depends on whether you're focused on how much discomfort you're in or whether you're looking towards the end and what you can gain/learn/how you can help others going through the same thing - will you be a better person or a bitter person? Personally, I prefer the word refining to testing - I'm passing through, not enduring!

  “When people do bad things, they must face the consequences of their actions.” (in other words – “It’s your fault!” This doesn’t really explain earthquakes, though.)

  "It's your fault" - and your problem with being told this is...??? Life is not without consequences, deal with it!

  On the subject of earthquakes and other natural disasters, perhaps your thinking is still clouded with the JW idea that God created everything PERFECT. Truth is, the Bible does not say that - it says that He created it VERY GOOD - it was made how He intended, 'perfectly flawed' if you like. If this planet didn't have its present makeup - superhot core, fault lines etc, it could not exist and support life as it does. Neither God or Satan causes natural disasters - they just happen.

  “God *has* intervened before, but doesn’t do it too much, because he allows humans to have free will.” (But how does this explain e.g. terminal illnesses which aren’t caused by free will?)

  Sorry, I don't understand your line of reasoning here! Did you mean we should expect God to heal terminal illness because it wasn't someones intention to be ill? Imvho, any of the replies I've given above can apply to why God doesn't physically heal people, ie give people the healthcare they need where possible, sometimes, illness IS due to bad lifestyle habits. The hardest one to talk about is the 'refining' - how do terminally ill people (and those around them) learn to live with their condition? I've lost many dear friends to cancer in the past couple of years, even though they were in great pain, I saw something in their lives that I don't always see in 'healthy' people - they had peace, joy, dignity, love, they had risen above the human cesspit. I don't know about you, but I would say they had been healed in a different way...

  JW would answer by saying that the world is currently ruled by Satan (1 John 5:19), “because how could Satan offer Jesus ‘all the kingdoms of the world’ unless they were his to offer?’” (Matt 4:8, 9). Then they would probably pluck a few verses from all over the bible (Daniel 2:44, Revelation 21:3, 4) to show that God has big plans for the future, when He’s going to “sort everything out.”

  Umm - that is how other Christians do view the world! But just a couple of points:

  a - Satan does rule the world in a way - but he is a defeated ruler, and he knows his time is short.

  b - He offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, not because they are his but because he's a liar!!!

  “

  Oh, I see. So God knows about all the problems in the world, he’s upset by them, it’s not his fault, he has a plan and he’s going to do something about it soon™. That makes sense.”

  Sure does! the bottom line is this - yes sometimes Satan does cause problems (a vast subject - but Ephesians 6:11-13 should give you a hint!), often he gets TOO MUCH credit for bad stuff that was nothing to do with him!

  And that's why we rarely use Satan as an excuse for the world's problems!
• 

  designs

  The Jewish Sages wrote that the human inclinations were not absolute but conditional, subject to moral controls of the mind and will, it marked the end of fatalism. The Talmud contains a reflective retelling of Cain and Able and the Jobs among us.
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  Half a Person

  @teel

  Yeah that makes sense. Coming from an “us-against-the-world” Christian sect, I had never thought about it like that.

  @Deputy Dog

  I can see why you prefer “causing” to “allowing”. “Allowing” paints God as being a bit of a passive observer, whereas if he is truly active and totally in control, then “causing” would be a better description.

  God doesn't owe anyone life.

  I can sort of understand this, but it does make God seem a bit… Well, nasty. And things like earthquakes and terminal illness are quite arbitrary in who they target. It’s like God has walked up to humanity with a machine gun and is just randomly firing into the crowd. “You all deserve to die! [MACHINE GUN FIRE] You should count yourselves lucky if you escape! [MACHINE GUN FIRE] P.S. Come and worship me.”

  I thought that by using the “Satan explanation,” Christians could defend God against accusations of cruelty by showing that *someone else* is behind bad things happening. But perhaps the Christian response is that God doesn’t need anyone to make excuses for his behaviour, and that humans don’t have the right to question his actions (or inaction) anyway.

  Out of the storm the Lord spoke to Job once again
  …
  Are you trying to prove that I am unjust
  to put me in the wrong and yourself in the right?

  (Job 40:6, 8, Good News Bible)
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  AuntBee

  Gallons of ink have been spilled on the theodicy question! I do like what DD said, and half a person's verse from Job. It's interesting how the book of Job concerns the problem of suffering, and the answer to it is really..........no answer! -- I do know for sure that when you read the Bible Teach book, and it "answers" that age-old question, which has been debated/discussed over centuries by many brilliant theologians, philosophers, etc, in like 5 paragraphs....... Well, it's one of the most aburd things i've ever seen! Anyone who claims to answer it in a totally satisfying, dogmatic and simplistic manner is just plain wrong and ridiculous!
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  Half a Person

  @Sad emo

  Why is that avoiding the question? Lets face it - whether you have a belief in God or not, there ARE situations which we CAN sort out ourselves.

  From my personal (atheist) perspective, I’d have to say that “sorting out situations ourselves” is actually the ONLY answer, since God isn’t going to come along and do it for us. I think it’s great when people try to do something about the suffering they see in the world. (Note to self: must stop being a hypocrite and donate some money to charity)

  But the reason I think this is “avoiding the question” is because it focuses on what *we can do*, rather than on what God is (or isn’t) doing.

  will you be a better person or a bitter person?

  I think this is a brilliant attitude to have. To view problems as something to defeat rather than something to be defeated by. So I suppose, yes, the problems in your life give you the potential to become a stronger person.

  But again, this is more about how best to view/react to problems, rather than explaining why they exist in the first place.

  On the subject of earthquakes and other natural disasters, perhaps your thinking is still clouded with the JW idea that God created everything PERFECT. Truth is, the Bible does not say that - it says that He created it VERY GOOD - it was made how He intended, 'perfectly flawed' if you like.

  Would it be blasphemous to suggest that he could have done a better job? Perhaps he could have created some sort of warning light/siren system to alert us to when a natural disaster was about to happen. Maybe he could have made the thunder come *before* the lightning, so that if you heard a loud bang, you at least had time to run away from the sound, before you got hit by lightning. And maybe teeth could have been designed a bit better, somehow.

  Sorry, I don't understand your line of reasoning here! Did you mean we should expect God to heal terminal illness because it wasn't someones intention to be ill?

  I probably didn’t explain myself very well. What I was trying to say was:

  * God has intervened in the past (the flood, etc.)

  * But, in general, he keeps out of human affairs because he wants humans to exercise their free will. So he doesn’t generally *force* them to act in a certain way, but allows them the choice of whether to serve him or not.

  * So God’s non-intervention could be because he gives human the freedom to act, and also face the consequences (good or bad) of their actions.

  But my point was that some diseases are NOT the result of a person’s life choices, so why doesn’t God intervene to stop them? I mean, if a person smokes every day and then ends up with lung problems, it’s cause-and-effect, fair enough. But if a person is born with some sort of terrible condition, then it’s hardly their fault. So why doesn’t God intervene to stop this kind of unfair suffering?

  I saw something in their lives that I don't always see in 'healthy' people - they had peace, joy, dignity, love, they had risen above the human cesspit.

  Again, this explains a dignified, laudable reaction to a terrible affliction, but sadly doesn’t explain the reason why the affliction exists in the first place.

  [Satan] often he gets TOO MUCH credit for bad stuff that was nothing to do with him!

  I totally agree with this, mainly because I don’t think Satan even exists at all! But I do think the JW’s have a sort of obsession with Satan, blaming him for all sorts of things, from governments banning their preaching work, all the way through to the content of music/movies/the Internet.

  I just wondered why I didn’t hear him mentioned in the theist/atheist debates I’ve seen. Perhaps one of the reasons is that JW’s talk about Satan a lot more than mainstream Christians do.
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  bluecanary

  Wow, Half a Person, what an excellent post! You've said exactly what I feel on the subject. I felt the JWs were the only ones who offered a reasonable solution to the problem of evil. I haven't seen anyone else come close. I consider myself agnostic now.

  Deputy Dog I'm glad I don't serve your God. He sounds like a jerk. Reminds me of Bill Cosby, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!"

  Sad Emo I'm not satisfied by any of the responses you've made to the typical aversions to answering the problem of evil.

  "Our question shouldn't be 'What is *God* doing', but, rather, we should ask ourselves: 'What am *I* doing?'" (avoiding the question)

  Why is that avoiding the question? Lets face it - whether you have a belief in God or not, there ARE situations which we CAN sort out ourselves. For example, many lack food, water, sanitation, housing and healthcare in this world because OTHERS won't share their excess.

  It's avoiding the question because it substitutes a different question. If I ask you the time, you could say, "Rather than ask what time it is, you should ask how can I better manage my time?" Yeah, that's a good question, too, but it's a different question and maybe I want an answer to both.

  "These sort of things are a test." (as if suffering was some sort of self-improvement programme.)

  They can be.

  Yeah, they can be. They can also not be. The fact that suffering often exists with no benefit still demands the question, why let it go on?

  "When people do bad things, they must face the consequences of their actions." (in other words - "It's your fault!" This doesn't really explain earthquakes, though.)

  "It's your fault" - and your problem with being told this is...??? Life is not without consequences, deal with it!

  On the subject of earthquakes and other natural disasters, perhaps your thinking is still clouded with the JW idea that God created everything PERFECT. Truth is, the Bible does not say that - it says that He created it VERY GOOD - it was made how He intended, 'perfectly flawed' if you like. If this planet didn't have its present makeup - superhot core, fault lines etc, it could not exist and support life as it does. Neither God or Satan causes natural disasters - they just happen.

  I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying people shouldn't reap consequences of their actions. But a lot of the pain in our lives has nothing to do with anything we could have prevented. Again, your God sounds like a jerk. He purposefully created a world that hurt us?

  I can sort of understand this, but it does make God seem a bit... Well, nasty. And things like earthquakes and terminal illness are quite arbitrary in who they target. It's like God has walked up to humanity with a machine gun and is just randomly firing into the crowd. "You all deserve to die! [MACHINE GUN FIRE] You should count yourselves lucky if you escape! [MACHINE GUN FIRE] P.S. Come and worship me."

  Exactly!

  Buddhist koans have more satisfying answers than these.

  Does a dog have the Buddha nature?

  MU!