Governing Body's excuse - "the apostles made mistakes too"

by xelder 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • xelder
    xelder

    We have all heard how the GB can make mistakes and it's ok because Jesus apostles had wrong expectations too.

    For instance. Peter had faults, James and John too - also, "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Isreal at this time" - etc

    Lets suppose for a moment that there was a first century GB (as is claimed). Can anyone name a single time when the apostles as a group, under prayer and claiming God's direction as a group, ever established a belief or clarification, and then a few years later received "new light", or a different understanding of any kind, thus causing them to redirect individuals or congregations on a different course than they had previously established as from God?

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Nope...

    And welcome to the forum!

    I can't think of any instance of "new light" since I don't believe there was ever a change in course by the apostles. It wasn't until the last of the apostles died that the divisions began to take hold in the early church.

    I would be interested in hearing what Leolaia or Narkissos might have to say on this subject...

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    Not once.

    Having a character flaw and being a false prophet are obviously two different things. But what can you expect from people who need to believe a lie to keep themselves sane. (bring out the prozac!)

    Welcome to the board.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    None of the Apostles claimed to be mediator between man and God..

    Thats Jesus`s job..

    The WBT$ claims to be mediator for everyone,except the 144,000..

    Jesus is out of a Job..

    ....................

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Can anyone name a single time when the apostles as a group, under prayer and claiming God's direction as a group, ever established a belief or clarification, and then a few years later received "new light", or a different understanding of any kind, thus causing them to redirect individuals or congregations on a different course than they had previously established as from God?

    Xelder,

    Sure, that is an easy one. Actually I can think of several. But the most important one as far as we are concerned is the prohibition on blood for Gentiles among other things which also allowed Jews to keep the Law or circumcision for many more years, the very thing that was also being questioned at this same meeting. The matter was brought up in a big meeting in Jerusalem that was recorded in Acts chapter 15 and they posted a letter to be sent out to all Gentile believers and congregations at that meeting. Some fourteen years later they threw that same letter into the Apostle Paul's face claiming that he was violating it by not showing or teaching that their decision did not apply to Jewish believers, just Gentiles. This is because Paul was doing that very thing even rejecting its provisions as he believed the discussion on not keeping the Law was then settled and simply considered their letter as a reconciliation with Gentiles over the matter and did not take is as a doctrinal device. James in Jerusalem which also had some Apostles there even forced him to take vows in the Temple and shave his head. Was that Christian of them? Is this a truth that we must also follow today? This event was recorded in Acts chapter 21 and this is where they accused Paul. Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, andpurify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. And later some of them conspired and nearly killed Paul but the Roman armies saved his life. The book of Hebrews corrected the thinking of such Jews in Jerusalem and James finally apologized. Yes, James finally wrote a letter to Jews everywhere changing such views for Jewish believers and Jude his brother was even stronger in condemning this practice of keeping the Law. John who was corrected by Paul early on as recorded in Gal. chapter 2 when this all started and Peter who was also a part of it in the beginning corrected their views but at different times since John did not correct James on this practice at the time permitting it to continue. Now the Watchtower does not want you to know any of this and most churches avoid it as well because it erodes the authority they pretend to have over you. They certainly do not want you questioning them or overriding their mandates the way Paul did who set this example for us.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Xelder,

    At least the Law was sanctioned by God for thousands of years and keeping it was always a part of their lives and upbringing. What the Watchtower is teaching is very deceitful, mostly lies and never was the truth or sanctioned by God in the first place.

    Joseph

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    If they are going to admit making mistakes, they had better start treating people better when they start questioning the doctrines. People are going to catch those mistakes, and report them. And, when they report them, the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger only denounces the reporters. Raymond Franz tried to fix the mistakes, and look what happened to him--and he was in the Governing Body at the time.

    I doubt that Peter would have gone off on anyone that exposes his mistakes. Peter would examine them objectively and fix the problems, not lash out on whoever tried to correct him (yes, Jesus and Paul have both corrected serious mistakes that Peter made). Additionally, they did not ban using outside sources to research the doctrines for accuracy or require people to follow the bad teaching and teach it until they corrected it themselves. The Washtowel does.

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Imagine if they said in the 1st Century......Armagedon is coming in 75 A.D then the "generation" that saw 75 A.D....their would be no Christians, they would have dis-banded due to these false prophecies.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    WTWizard,

    Well Peter would come around but not always instantly and he did support Paul later. When Paul corrected him in Antioch he ran to Jerusalem for support and Paul had to confront and correct him once again along with James and John before that big meeting. We see this in Gal. chapter 2. It did not stick with James, and John really did nothing to correct James for many years. After Paul was nearly killed over this John wrote about love from then on and its importance in the faith as love could have prevented this tragedy. You know that such men or at least Peter at the time had power over life and death as we see in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. So caution was a part of the equation that Paul had to face. He was first given a commission and support by the Antioch congregation to get this job done but did not have this support the next time he confronted them so he got himself in real trouble. He was even warned not to go but he went anyway. That is also an example he set for us.

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Can anyone name a single time when the apostles as a group, under prayer and claiming God's direction as a group, ever established a belief or clarification, and then a few years later received "new light", or a different understanding of any kind, thus causing them to redirect individuals or congregations on a different course than they had previously established as from God?

    It seems you have carefully worded your question so as to elicit a negative answer... ;)

    Afaik the idea of apostles acting "as a group" is only found in the book of Acts and there they are indeed not portrayed as contradicting themselves as a group from one moment to another; disagreement between them is carefully limited to trivial matters (e.g. Paul and Barnabas) or smoothly resolved (e.g. Peter and James).

    However, if you consider the whole NT "apostolic" material in some sense (as the early church did) you may get a pretty different picture. Not that of a "governing body" changing its mind as time goes but of individual "apostles" and movements which had actually little in common, and often are found in strong disagreement with each other when they happen to deal with similar topics (e.g. Matthew vs. Romans on the validity of the Law, James vs. Romans on faith and works, the so-called "apostolic decree" and Revelation vs. 1 Corinthians on food sacrificed to idols, and so on). You have also different and mutually exclusive views integrated in the same work (e.g. the Son of Man will come before the preaching of the Gospel to Israel, Samaria excluded, is over, Matthew 10; after the preaching is extended to the diaspora as a testimony to the Gentiles, but immediately after Jerusalem's fall, chapter 24; after the preaching is extended to all the Gentiles, without any chronological indication, 28:18ff -- all of this on Jesus' lips btw). You have also very strong differences between works ascribed to the same person, e.g. the correction of the eschatology of 1 Thessalonians (the day of the Lord will come anytime, without any forewarning sign) in 2 Thessalonians (the day of the Lord cannot come now because the 'man of lawlessness' must come before, and he cannot come now for some mysterious reason). So there are indeed indications of doctrinal revision within most if not all segments of the early Christian nebula. What is actually lacking is the evidence for any constituted group of "apostles" beint acknowledged as a collective overarching authority by all of them -- iow, we do not see the Twelve (as per the storyline of the Gospels and Acts) working practically in such function over the universal church.

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