The WTS's start of the "70 years"

by Doug Mason 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • scholar


    Believe you me it is no joke, but the joke is on you for foolishly accepting apostate propaganda.

    scholar JW

  • scholar

    Black Sheep

    Post 3261

    The problematic 'fifty years' ascribed to Josephus was probably a textual error where the original should have read 'seventy' rather than 'fifty' but if the latter is original then Josephus may well have been making a observation of the 'state of obscurity' of the temple during his already established fact of a 'seventy year period running from the Destructioin to the Return. In short, the 'fifty years' is no big problem for scholars because Josephus in so many places defaults to the fixed seventy year period.

    scholar JW

  • scholar


    Your comments on WT biblical chronology as 'not being fleshed out' and' having loose ends' is simply untrue and shows your ignorance of the subject. In fact our wondrous chronology has no gaps as with secular chronology, faithful to the Scriptures unlike secular chronology, is accurate in comparison with other chronologies and as with other chronologies in harmony with secular evidence and finally is prophetic in its application unlike other chronologies which consist of 'dead ends'.

    scholar JW

  • jeanniebeanz

    I have a question on this 70 years discussion.

    I have watched this same discussion for almost five years with the same people arguing the same points and no one is ever dissuaded from their own staunchly defended view of something that, IMHO can never be either proven or disproven because the writers of the disputed texts are not here to shed any light and were probably hallucinating when they wrote it anyhow and couldn't explain it even if they were standing here in this 'room'.

    Why do these discussions never die a natural death and go away? I am truly and honestly puzzled at the endless cycle of debate over this single item...


  • moomanchu

    Hey scholar,

    I don't remember any celebrations for the WT scholars.

    Are these celebrations done in private?

    Ever wonder to yourself, what if I'm wrong?

  • Leolaia

    Narkissos....Thanks, I forgot about that passage. Although the Society accepts it at face value, I see that it occurs within a paraphrase of Jeremiah ch. 40-44 and there is not much in the passage that does not derive from an exegetical reading of Jeremiah (cf. 43:10-11, 44:30, 48:1-47, 49:1-22, 52:28-30), and indeed a very similar line of interpretation can be found in the Seder Olam (ch. 26). The unhistorical character of the passage is most apparent in its description of Nebuchadnezzar's campaign, which claims that Egypt's king (Apries) died in battle against the Babylonian forces in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year. In reality, Nebuchadnezzar's army was besieging Tyre in his 23rd year (582 BC) and he did not invade Egypt until his 37th year when the siege was over (567 BC), and the deposed Apries fought on the same side as Nebuchadnezzar against the usurper Amasis (who continued to reign over Egypt for the rest of the Neo-Babylonian era and into the Achaemenid period).

    It is a matter of being faithful to what the inspired record says and not read something that is simply not there.

    pseudo-scholar...So where does it say in Jeremiah 52 that the Jews taken into exile came only from the surrounding nations around Judah and not from Judah itself? For that matter, where does it say that Judah would be made without an inhabitant within the first year after Nebuchadnezzar razes Jerusalem (cf. Jeremiah 4:29, 9:11)? As mentioned above, 2 Kings 25:26 is only talking about the situation in the 18th/19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Did not some Jews return to Judah from Egypt? Indeed, Jeremiah predicts that a few would indeed do this (44:28).

    Jeremiah in 52:28-30 simply lists the number of exilees taken not only from Jerusalem but from other surrounding nations showing the devastating effect that Neb's invasion of Judah had upon that nation as prophesied by Jeremiah.

    Now that is interesting because the "seventy years" prediction in Jeremiah 25 (MT) concerns Judah AND the surrounding nations: "I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin...All this land will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years" (v. 9-11). And so in the case of Moab, "the destroyer will come against every town and not a town will escape ... her towns will become desolate, with no one to live in them.... Woe to you, O Moab! The people of Chemosh are destroyed, your sons are taken into exile and your daughters into exile" (48:8-9, 46). Regarding Ammon, "every one of you will be driven away and no one will gather the fugitives" (49:5), and concerning Edom, "I will chase Edom from its land in an instant ... so no one will live there, no man will dwell in it" (49:18-19). As for Hazor, it "will become a haunt of jackals, a desolate place forever; no one will live there, no man will dwell in it" (v. 33). The seventy years is applied to "all the surrounding nations", not just Judah, so if you require Judah to have been literally without an inhabitant within the same year Jerusalem was destroyed (thereby starting the seventy years), then the same thing should apply to surrounding nations like Moab, Ammon, and Edom. In other words, it shouldn't matter if the Jews taken in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year were exiled from Judah or from "other surrounding nations". There shouldn't be anyone in the surrounding nations.

    some months after the destruction of Jerusalem, the remaining population fled to Egypt right on time leaving the land desolate at October, 607 BCE. Such grand fulfillment of prophecy proves that Jehovah is a great Timekeeper and Fulfiller of Prophecy

    Where is it prophesied that the entire population of Judah would be removed off the land within a few months (right on time?) after the destruction of Jerusalem?

  • bohm

    scholar: mmm. okay. you know, enlighten me on this interesting subject. Who are those scholars? (by who i mean what are their names) and what are their credentials? Please, i want to join in on the non-pagan-celebration of them.

    Ill help you, Rolf Furuli from norway is one right? the guy who is a jw and an expert on ancient languages and NOT NEOBABYLONIC HISTORY? What other scholars do you refer to?

    just as an aside - you know that when biblical chronology disagree with history, that is EVIDENCE AGAINST A LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE. just like all that evidence for evolution, against noahs ark and a gazillion other things in the bible is EVIDENCE AGAINST THE BIBLE. I dont think you appreciate that fact when you so happily point out disagreement between the bible and secular history. you know what, i think i will write a thread about this not to derail the discussion.

  • bohm
  • AnnOMaly

    some months after the destruction of Jerusalem, the remaining population fled to Egypt right on time leaving the land desolate at October, 607 BCE. Such grand fulfillment of prophecy proves that Jehovah is a great Timekeeper and Fulfiller of Prophecy

    Another thought on that.

    Ezek. 33:21 f.

    (v.21) In the twelfth year of our exile, in the tenth month on the fifth day, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said, "The city has fallen!" ...

    ... (v.23, 24) Then the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, the people living in those ruins in the land of Israel are saying, 'Abraham was only one man, yet he possessed the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as our possession.' ...

    ... (v.27-29) "Say this to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: As surely as I live, those who are left in the ruins will fall by the sword, those out in the country I will give to the wild animals to be devoured, and those in strongholds and caves will die of a plague. I will make the land a desolate waste, and her proud strength will come to an end, and the mountains of Israel will become desolate so that no one will cross them. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have made the land a desolate waste because of all the detestable things they have done.'

    'scholar,' can you explain why, if the land was competely desolate from around the seventh month (October-ish), there were people still said to be living in the ruins in the tenth month (December/January)?

  • Leolaia

    AnnOMaly....Interesting point. The messenger reached Ezekiel with the news of Jerusalem's destruction in late December but the journey between Judah and Babylon takes about four months (cf. Ezra 7:9), so the report of people living in the ruins probably pertains to the time of the city's destruction in late August, certainly before the assassination of Gedaliah (regardless of which year Gedaliah's assassination occurred). However the prophet represents Yahweh as confirming that people were still living in the ruins and and as giving him an oracle for the messenger to take back to those people in Judah. With a four month trip ahead of him, the messenger would not be able to deliver the message to the ruin dwellers until April or May the following year.

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