by Simon 18 Replies latest jw friends
Can anyone remember this being in print or hearing the same thing ...
I remember more than one talk where the suggestion was made that the larger-than-life Greek heroes were the same nephalim or "mighty ones of old" mentioned in the bible.
Does anyone else remember this?
Yes Simon,
I have no Watchtower publication reference to this however recall Hercules often being ignorantly compared to that angry maniac Sampson (if Jehovah's spirit enters into a man and moves him to such selfish violent excesses i'd rather live without it thanks ;)
Trouble for the watchtower society in saying such things is they add authenticity to and run the risk of arousing a young mans curiosity and interest in the myths and legends of antiquity.
It's eyeopening to see the remarkable similarities of the life of the saviour Hercules and that of the saviour Jesus. As are the similarities and reflections of Greek myth and legend in Johns Revelation.
Most if not all biblical stories are copied from Egypt, Persia and Greece. (including a large portion of Psalms being a direct copy from the Egyptian book of the dead and the ten commandments almost a word for word uplift from a section of the Egyptian military code)
At least Zeus and Hera had a good sex life. Perhaps if Jehovah got layed once in a while he wouldn't have been so uptight ;)
unclebruce
Well as far as I can figure out, the off spring of "angels" and mankind produced some interesting "kids" to say the least. That these were the Heroes of old? the probability factor is very high I would say.
Hello Simon,
concerning your question and more precisely this point:
“... the larger-than-life Greek heroes were the same
nephilim or "mighty ones of old" mentioned in the bible.”
here are the result of a -quick - research
N° 1 *** w94 2/1 5-6 Agents of Evil ***
The account continues at Genesis 6:4: “The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” These hybrid sons born to women and fathered by angels were abnormally strong, “mighty ones.” They were men of violence, or Nephi·lim', a Hebrew word that means “those who cause others to fall down.”
It is noteworthy that these events later found expression in the legends of ancient civilizations. For example, a 4,000-year-old Babylonian epic describes the superhuman exploits of Gilgamesh, a mighty, violent demigod whose “lust [left] no virgin to her lover.” Another example, from Greek legend, is the superhuman Hercules (or Heracles). Born to Alcmene, a human, and fathered by the god Zeus, Hercules set out on a series of violent adventures after killing his wife and children in a fit of madness. Although such tales were greatly distorted as they passed from generation to generation, they tie in with what the Bible says about the Nephilim and their rebellious angelic fathers.
N° 2 *** it-2 492-3 Nephilim ***
Increased Wickedness. “The mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame” that were produced by these marriages, were not men of fame with God, for they did not survive the Flood, as did Noah and his family. They were “Nephilim,” bullies, tyrants, who no doubt helped to make conditions worse. Their angelic fathers, knowing the construction of the human body and being able to materialize, were not creating life, but lived in these human bodies and, cohabiting with women, brought forth children. Their children, “mighty ones,” were therefore unauthorized hybrids. Apparently the Nephilim did not, in turn, have children.
In Mythology. The fame and dread of the Nephilim, it appears, gave rise to many mythologies of heathen people who, after the confusion of languages at Babel, were scattered throughout the earth. Though the historical forms of the Genesis account were greatly distorted and embellished, there was a remarkable resemblance in these ancient mythologies (those of the Greeks being only one example), in which gods and goddesses mated with humans to produce superhuman heroes and fearful demigods having god-man characteristics.—See GREECE, GREEKS (Greek Religion).
N°3 *** it-1 1001 Greece, Greeks ***
There is evidence of Babylonian influence on Greek religion. One ancient Greek fable is nearly a literal translation of an Akkadian original.
Another poet, Hesiod, probably of the eighth century B.C.E., is credited with systematizing the multitude of Greek myths and legends. Together with the Homeric poems, Hesiod’s Theogony formed the principal sacred writings, or theology, of the Greeks.
In considering the Greek myths, it is of interest to see how the Bible sheds light on their possible or even probable origin. As Genesis 6:1-13 shows, prior to the Flood, angelic sons of God came to earth, evidently materializing in human form, and cohabited with attractive women. They produced offspring who were called Nephilim, or Fellers, that is, “those who cause others to fall down.” The result of this unnatural union of spirit creatures with humans, and the hybrid race it produced, was an earth filled with immorality and violence. (Compare Jude 6; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4, 5; see NEPHILIM.) Like others of the post-Flood times, Javan, the progenitor of the Greek people, undoubtedly heard the account of pre-Flood times and circumstances, likely from his father Japheth, a survivor of the Flood. Note, now, what the writings attributed to Homer and Hesiod reveal.
The numerous gods and goddesses they described had human form and great beauty, though often being gigantic and superhuman. They ate, drank, slept, had sexual intercourse among themselves or even with humans, lived as families, quarreled and fought, seduced and raped. Though supposedly holy and immortal, they were capable of any type of deceit and crime. They could move among mankind either visibly or invisibly. Later Greek writers and philosophers sought to purge the accounts of Homer and Hesiod of some of the more vile acts attributed to the gods.
These accounts may reflect, although in greatly expanded, embellished, and distorted form, the authentic account of pre-Flood conditions found in Genesis. A further remarkable correspondency is that, in addition to the principal gods, the Greek legends describe demigods or heroes who were of both divine and human descent. These demigods were of superhuman strength but were mortal (Hercules being the only one of them granted the privilege of attaining immortality). The demigods thus bear a marked similarity to the Nephilim in the Genesis account."
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I hope this will help you. Pleased to have done - something just for you -
receive my greetings, James Charles MacHislopp
Hello, dearest Simon... and great peace to you!
Actually, such presumptions are incorrect. By the spirit of my Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES, holy spirit, which spirit I have received from my Lord, the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, I am permitted to respond to you that the "Nephilim" were not Greek heroes nor were they the 'offspring' of wicked angels. They were not 'earthling' at all. They were 'celestial', or from the spirit realm.
When the account says, "The Nephilim proved to be in the earth..." it is speaking of SPIRIT beings... (i.e., cherub/cherubim, seraph/seraphim, nephi/nephilim...), who took a fondness for the daughters of 'earthling' men... and came here. It was they who 'proved to be in the earth'. In order to procreate (spirit creatures do not have such capability in and of themselves), they took on the 'form of men'... put on bodies of flesh with its blood, and had relations with such women, producing offspring. The 'nature' of such offspring, then, were flesh... with its blood... AND the 'spirit' of spirit creatures. But such spirit was... bad.
(NOTE: This is the OPPOSITE of my Lord... and those 'beget' by holy spirit... in that they, too, occupied/occupy flesh... with its blood... but 'house' a GOOD spirit. God's.)
Thus, a flood was sent to 'contain' such beings. How is that? Because water... contains spirit creatures. It imprisons them. That is why Legion was sent into swine, and the swine... into water. That is why the creatures of the sea were not affected by the flood. Fire, however, that which comes from heaven, is the ONLY thing that can destroy the spirit. ("Do not be in fear of him that can kill the body; rather, be in fear of Him that can kill the body... AND THE SPIRIT... in Gehenna.")
Because the spirit can 'hide' in vessels of flesh with its blood (which is the entire purpose for us being here in the first place - we were hidden from 'enemies' in the spirit realm, in 'earthen' vessels, until such time as we can be 'fertilized' with HOLY spirit... and 'born'... again...) ALL flesh had to be destroyed in order to expose such spirits. Thus, with the exception of Noah, his household, and certain animals whom God KNEW had no such 'bad' spirits in them, all other flesh was destroyed in the deluge, even the flesh of animals (spirits can only occupy living creatures... things that live: humans, animals, plants, etc. Things that contain... and CAN contain life within them.) How did God know Noah, his household and such animals also did not possess bad spirits? Because God can see what is IN the flesh, unlike us: we can see only the OUTWARD appearance.
The founder of the Mormon Church, Smith, claimed to have received HIS 'revelation' from a Nephi. Which is quite likely true. However, by the very nature that it WAS a "Nephi" which revealed it to him, we should know and understand that it was NOT 'light' that he received, but that which APPEARED to be 'light'... as Satan KEEPS 'transforming himself into an angel of light.' Since there is only one TRUE LIGHT (John 8:12; 1:6-9; Revelation 21:23), Smith should have known that receiving a message from anyone other THAN that Light... was an error. For my Lord would no send a Nephi to speak for him, for he speaks for himself, by means of his spirit and my Father's, HOLY SPIRIT... the spirit... of the Truth (John 14:6, 15, 16; John 16:8, 9, 13, 14; Hebrews 1:2).
I hope that by means of the True Light that resides within me, dear Simon (Romans 8:9), I have been able to share some of that light with you here. If so, and if you have ears to hear what the Spirit says, then may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, JAH OF ARMIES, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, come to be upon you... you and your entire household, if you so wish it, so that you, too, can...
"COME! Take 'life's water'... free!"
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Simon,
The story of the Nephalim is true. Their descendants not only became Greek gods but in today's world they dominate the NBA. There is nothing like a big strong center or a couple of huge power forwards to make a person stand up from their seat and yell out "Jesus Christ"!
Dave
Uh? C'mon guys...
1. They shall reproduce only according to their kind.
2. Angels (1st kind) & humans (2nd kind) mate & have offspring.
I mean, aside from the non-debate over whether they were sterile or not, how different can two "kinds" be? One 3-dimensional & from earth: the other a spirit! We are probably more closely related to bananas. (Ask the girls... hehe)
Anyway, doesn't verse 4 say, in potential contradiction to verse 2, that after the Nephilim were in the earth God's sons had relations with women and bore sons who were called, not Nephilim, but the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame?
That is why God decided to kill all the animals, obviously.
It is almost certainly a patchwork of different myths & stories sown together by the compiler.
Religion n.
An organisation designed to promote atheism.
Hey unclebruce: I e-mailed you for some refrences on your statements about legend vs. the bible and decided to see if you would post them here. I would like to see some apologetics on both sides.
Dave, LMAO!!!!! (How's the nicotine withdrawal going... hope you are doing ok.... my significant other (sounds like you have the same profession, btw) is in circumstances startlingly similar to those that you described being in about a month ago....*sigh*)
Simon
MacH provided "published" information (thanks MH btw) but I wanted to add that when I was studying, I was definitely led to believe that the Nephilim WERE the offspring of materialized demons and daughters of men, and that was precisely where the greek "myths" came from. The only thing that threw them was when I asked why the "demons" chose to be MALE, and not female. (This issue has been discussed somewhere on the forum and it was VERY interesting... not enough caffeine in my system yet to go look for it tho..)
An additional note: After I'd been a witness for several years, the subject of "alien abductions" was alive. Sisters were reporting weird experiences: being molested by demons in their sleep, even to the point of finding - um - "stuff" on themselves upon awakening. (Those pesky yard sales...) These subjects were discussed with grave seriousness by people who were borg-faithful through and through... not "fringy" types (like me ). They were suggesting that the demons, since they could not materialize in the "flesh" anymore, were desperately trying to find ways of reproducing themselves via human DNA, impregnating abductees, producing hybrids, blah blah blah.
Just thought that information was relevent to the topic you brought up.
Shelby, I read your contribution with interest. It is certainly plausible and a defendable argument. I don't agree, necessarily, but the information will go into the "think tank" area of my brain. (It's teensy but I do what I can do....)
Some questions for you, if I may:
Because the spirit can 'hide' in vessels of flesh with its blood (which is the entire purpose for us being here in the first place - we were hidden from 'enemies' in the spirit realm, in 'earthen' vessels, until such time as we can be 'fertilized' with HOLY spirit... and 'born'... again...)(Bold added)
Could you please explain what you meant by that (the bold part)? It doesn't really coincide with the Genesis story... the account in the bible indicates that there was no rebellion until after satan got "prideful". Are you saying that the creation of an earth with a human populace was so that God could "hide" certain beings? Who got chosen, and why? Weren't the ones remaining in some chaotic spirit realm therefore left out in the cold, so to speak?
ALL flesh had to be destroyed in order to expose such spirits. Thus, with the exception of Noah, his household, and certain animals whom God KNEW had no such 'bad' spirits in them, all other flesh was destroyed in the deluge, even the flesh of animals (spirits can only occupy living creatures... things that live: humans, animals, plants, etc. Things that contain... and CAN contain life within them.) How did God know Noah, his household and such animals also did not possess bad spirits? Because God can see what is IN the flesh, unlike us: we can see only the OUTWARD appearance.Why was "exposure" necessary at all if, as you say, God can see what is IN the flesh? Or was "exposure" necessary for other beings' "benefit"?
Was this action ("exposure" via the flood) taken on God's part as a temporary stop-gap type of measure? It seems like things are right back where they were before the "flood". If not worse. Wouldn't it make more sense if God had taken action with more effective results? (No disrespect or irreverence intended... truly.)
Thank you,
lauralisa
I confess that I never heard of this WT theory. I'm sure it's in the Bible, or they wouldn't have said it! ;-)
So there really WAS a Prometheus? Hercules? Jupiter? Hera? etc. etc. etc...........................
Seize the day, and put the least possible trust in tomorrow. - Horace
I have learned to live each day as it comes and not to borrow trouble by dreading tomorrow. - Dorothy Dix
