Christmas and birthdays...

by Celia 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Fred:
    I’m sorry but I missed your point about the car. Would you explain?

    Lauralisa:
    I don’t think I ever heard Eccl 7:1 used in connection with birthdays. (I’ve used it a lot in giving funeral talks --it’s on the outline). I can see how it could be incorporated into the argument, however. I would quickly point out, however, that if that were to be taken that death is to be viewed as preferable to birth then how is it that death is spoken of as ‘the last enemy’ in Revelation? I would also ask why, if it’s such a great thing, is it not celebrated? BTW I live in Louisiana and some funerals here look suspiciously like celebrations! Of course we were told what this scripture meant and we dared not for a moment consider other applications…

    Good point on the wedding ring.

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    Actually there are 3 verses in Job that if you read them all show that Job's children did celebrate their birthdays and of course angels did celebrate that Christ had been born (Lu 2).CHRISTMAS TREES, SANTA, THE STAR ETC -- THE REAL TRUTH: More recent scholarly studies prove that the Christmas Tree is from the Tree of Eternal Life (Ge 2:9, 3:22) depicted in church plays of the Middle Ages, not Luther or Druid tree-worshippers, although outdated articles for example in World Book Encyclopedia still repeat the legends and Luther may have originated the use of candles attached to Christmas trees.

    The giant cedars of Lebanon used to build the temple at Jerusalem themselves had bright green needles with tan-colored cones, and John 10:22-3 says Christ visited the successor temple during the Jewish "Festival of Dedication," namely Channukah, during winter. Also called the Festival of Lights, it had singing, the carrying of tree branches, homes filled with lights and joy. Celebrated 8 days each time, its date varies yearly but the first Channukah was December 25, making it an even more likely source for the December 25 celebration than Rome's Saturnalia which came later in the month. Some believe Christ was actually born about Oct 1, which would mean Mary conceived 9 months previously, that is about or on December 25. Indeed count 9 months backwards from October to see for yourself. As to Santa Claus, no, he did not come from a vaguely known Asian god who descended chimneys to bring gifts or Siberian wizards but instead the Christian Nicholaus in Turkey in the Middle Ages who had white hair, red robes and each Dec 6 night anonymously shoved gift pouches with gold through windows of homes with poor daughters so that they would not be sold into slavery and prostitution because too poor to pay a marriage dowery.

    In fact Christ himself was wrongly attacked as a "glutton and drunkard" simply for believing in a good time (Mt 11:19). He once turned water to wine at a wedding party in Cana (Jn 2:1-11), told followers to invite needy persons to parties (Lu 14:13-14), and accepted gifts including expensive nard oil. As with Nicholas later, Revelation 1:14 even describes the resurrected Christ's hair as like "white wool" or "snow," his cloak red or scarlet-colored (red with a bluish tinge--Mt 27:28), and white symbolizes purity. True, all that just coincidentally reminds one of Santa Claus, but do note that the earliest Christians enjoyed balanced merriment at "love feasts" (Jude 12), the angels celebrated Christ's birth (Lu 2), and Job's children had enjoyed birthdays (Job 1:3, 3:1, 3).

    Most Christmas trees are topped by a star remindful of the Christ star. According to John Mosley's The Christmas Star (1985) from September 3 BC to June 2 BC Jupiter, known as "the royal planet" passed Regulus "the king star" in the constellation Leo, reversed then passed again, turned and passed a 3rd time. By June 17 Jupiter and Regulus were so close they seemed a single star when seen by the eye. This then is one intriguing possible source for the Christ star in the Bible.

    Before Christ's birth unspecified men called "magi" in Biblical Greek came from the East first to Jerusalem (Mt 2:1-2) then went on to find the Christ child in Bethlehem. Some translations render the word magi as astrologers because its root like the word "magician" is linked to the idea of being a person of great might but although magi may refer to people who try to predict the future by observing the stars, using omens and consulting spirit beings as forbidden by God at Deuteronomy 18:10-12, it can also refer to people who worked to predict future weather patterns, good times to plant and harvest, buy and sell crops, etc via careful observation of the clouds, stars and other natural phenomena and with very little to absolutely no special focus on the occult at all. So for solid reasons some Bible translations continue to translate magi as simply "wise men" or "stargazers" and this is also supported by the Bible’s positively saying they brought gifts for Christ then also protected him by leaving without telling his location to King Herod who wickedly desired to slay him. The oldest traditions of oral and written nature have called the wise men "kings," and Mesopotamia (Chaldea/Babylonia) did have sub-kings ruling city-states, often with the best education then possible.

    Those who kept their families from celebrating Christmas should not be condemned if they acted out of lack of accurate knowledge in the past but also no one should claim that those who do celebrate the birth of Christ are out of harmony with the Bible even as the preceding information proves. Please read and meditate on what Paul writes at Colossians 2:16.... The writers are part of a nonprofit mostly house-and-computer-based fellowship of Free Christians with independent but cooperative Bible Groups, which directly emails the Free Christians Newsletter to many ex-JWs and Friends regardless of current belief systems. For a free subscription contact [email protected] today.

  • Celia
    Celia

    Celtic,
    next door neighbor, huh ?
    You're in England, right ?
    I may be French, but I live in the USA.
    So, does someone know what was first forbidden to celebrate , Christmas or birthdays ?

  • Celia
    Celia

    Celtic,
    WT, may 15 1995...
    Can you cut and paste and post it here, please ?
    I do have some older WT, but no time to look for that right now.

  • WildHorses
    WildHorses

    Fred, I thought you didn't celebrate Christmas. Oh the shame of it all........


    "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"

    Eleanor Roosevelt

  • wonderwoman77
    wonderwoman77

    Celia...you said in your first post that it was like jesus was born on a bad day because it was a sun worshiping holiday. But Jesus would have not been born in december, but in the fall. I celebrate christmas, but not because it would be jesus' birthday, but because it is a day to celebrate family and friends and tradition.
    So your question, it doesn't matter which came first, birthdays or christmas....Christmas came to be so catholics (no offense) could convert the pagans. They said, lets make this sun worshiping Jesus' birthday so the pagans will then worship christ and that is how it came to be.....

  • Celia
    Celia

    Wonderwoman,
    no offense either, but I know, everybody knows that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th.
    As nobody knows the exact date of his birth, why not choose a date (Dec.25) when everybody is celebrating anyway...
    My question was about the WTSociety... What did the Watch Tower call evil and pagan first, Christmas or Bday celebrating ?

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    ::: Actually there are 3 verses in Job that if you read them all show that Job's children did celebrate their birthdays :::

    I don’t think so.

    ::: of course angels did celebrate that Christ had been born (Lu 2).:::

    I would hardly compare that angelic announcement with today’s Christmas festivities which really have little to do with Christ.

    ::: More recent scholarly studies prove that the Christmas Tree is from the Tree of Eternal Life (Ge 2:9, 3:22) :::

    Prove? Hardly.

    ::: As with Nicholas later, Revelation 1:14 even describes the resurrected Christ's hair as like "white wool" or "snow," his cloak red or scarlet-colored (red with a bluish tinge--Mt 27:28), and white symbolizes purity. True, all that just coincidentally reminds one of Santa Claus, :::

    Come on now. You forgot about the sled and the reindeer and the elves and the bag of toys…..

    Why the elaborate (and transparent) justifications for the celebration? If you want to do, just do it. Call it what it is and be done with it.

    Christmas never was what it used to be.

  • Caole
    Caole

    Hi Celia,

    Your question made me a bit curious too...Here's what I found digging around the net a little.

    This sudden change can be seen in the 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses which explains, "In Pastor Russell's day, Christmas was celebrated at the Old Bible House in Allegheny, Pennsylvania.

    "Ora Sullivan Wakefield recalls that Brother Russell (founder of the Watchtower) gave members of the Bible House family five- or ten-dollar gold pieces at Christmas. "What caused the Bible Students to stop celebrating Christmas?

    Richard H. Barbar gave this answer: `I was asked to give an hour talk over a (radio) hookup on the subject of Christmas. ... That talk pointed out the pagan origin of Christmas.

    "`Did we mind putting those pagan things away?' asks Charles John Brandlein. `Absolutely not. This was just complying with new things learned, and we had never known before they were pagan.

    "`It was just like taking a soiled garment off and throwing it away.' Next, birthday celebrations and Mother's Day were discarded - more creature worship" (p. 147, parenthesis added).

    taken from here: http://www.seii.com/ccn/cults/jw-037.txt
  • Celia
    Celia

    Wow, amazing....
    ..."`It was just like taking a soiled garment off and throwing it
    away.' Next, birthday celebrations and Mother's Day were
    discarded - more creature worship"...
    Of course, once you discard Christmas celebrations, you have to discard birthdays, because how would you explain not celebrating the birth of Christ, but celebrating people's b.day ???

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