Police Officers and JW Judicial Committees

by LDH 13 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  LDH

  Voltaire posted something that made me start thinking about Judicial Committees and the rights an accused has when summoned by one.

  Basically, here in the US if you are arrested, USUALLY the police officer or arresting agent will read you your Miranda Rights. They will say:
  "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to be speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense."

  Now, being told there is a judicial committee formed is a lot like being arrested. You haven't actually been CONVICTED of anything, you are only a suspect in a crime. You may choose to cooperate fully with police and tell the the answer to any question they want to ask you, or you may choose to say nothing at all.

  Now, at certain times, Police have given the Miranda rights to people who are unable to understand them. Say, a mentally retarded person with an IQ of 60. Not only don't they understand the Miranda rights and how important they are, they are doubly fucked because in their demented little brain, Police are the ultimate symbol for Authority, and why wouldn't you cooperate with Officer Friendly?

  What this has led to is many people being convicted of crimes, even though they never committed them. Often times, these convictions are reversed because the person had no knowledge of their right to defend themself or even know how to go about doing it.

  Now let's compare the situation to JWs and Judicial Committees.

  Because of the exhaustive process the WBTS goes through in brainwashing you to beleive that the Elders are God's right hand men, they have the same level of respect in the Borg that Police Officers do in the world.

  When hauled in front of a Judicial Committee, you may feel an overwhelming sense that the Elders are there to help you, much as a mentally retarded person would feel that the "police are good."

  You may answer questions that you shouldn't, or the answers you give may lead to other questions that will get you convicted. Just like the Police, Smelders CAN & DO twist stories to get the desired outcome--your conviction.

  The bottom line is an interrogative process that resembles Alice in Wonderland. The only correct answer is "Off with her head!"

  Now don't say you haven't been warned. You have righs when it comes to dealing with the Smelders. Don't let them 'Good Cop/Bad Cop' you.

  There is more to be said on the subject, I invite you to do so.

  Lisa
  Don't say anything Class
• 

  Pathofthorns

  This is a good post Lisa. Too many times people show up to a jc with some ideal view how things work. Many think the process is fair. These people are in for a rude awakening. Sometimes you need this, because once you see how the process works, you are never the same.

  Like you said, you don't have to show up and you don't necessarily owe them any explanations when they have no evidence or they don't have 2 witnesses.

  On the other hand, it is like a private club and they can make the rules and enforce them however they see fit, so in essense you have very little in the way of "rights".

  Your best defence is to understand how the system works, to know the rules and how to work within them and when to speak and when to shut up. Always make sure you are holding the cards. Never give them the upper hand, which is what they have when you show up to a committee.

  Path
• 

  mommy

  I know I went to one that a person was accusing me of doing something wrong. I was told to wait outside when they spoke first. Then I was brought in, gave my side. Then the accuser came back in and we all had a pow wow. Now in a real court, I would have been able to be present when the accuser gave his side of the story. In this kangaroo court they seperate you.
  wendy

  When I leave, you will know I have been here
• 

  Nathan Natas

  You have righs when it comes to dealing with the Smelders. Don't let them 'Good Cop/Bad Cop' you.

  
  I'm not sure, Lisa. For the sake of argument, let me say, "No you do NOT have rights if you are called before a Judicial Committee."

  "Rights" do not exist free floating in space like the law of gravity. They are a social contract - rules that the participants agree to abide by. The Jehovah Sock Puppet as operated by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has not granted any "rights" to the peons.

  The Judicial Committee is a metaphysical "theocratic" process controlled by a sock puppet vested with omnipotence by the participants, not a legal democratic process with controlling legal authorities.
• 

  LDH

  Yeah and once you are convicted they tell you "You can appeal!"

  Like the Bigwig f'ing attorney who tells his just convicted client the same thing. As they lead him away in handcuffs. Easy for you to say, asshole. You are a free man. While I will sit in a cell with three hots and a cot waiting for justice, you'll be free.

  Only difference, is in Court you are hauled away to jail to await your 'appeal.'

  At the KH you are hauled away to spiritual exile while trying to appeal the ruling.

  OH yeah, and the public defenders are a lot like some of the elders. Good hearts but they don't know know their ass from a hole in the ground. So why should they be surprised when you are convicted?
• 

  LDH

  OH Nathan but you are mistaken.

  You DO have rights with a Judicial Committee. You just don't know about them.

  Miranda rights weren't a 'new thing.' The accused just was not aware he had them. The Supreme Court decided that upon arrest, suspects from that point forward had to be informed of their rights.

  Soon enough I hope, there will be a letter to the congregation or some such manner of communication, that will clearly define the scope of a Judicial Committee and what the responsibility of each party is.

  Too many kangaroo court scenarios have happened, the Society is opening itself up to lawsuits with each one. I could clearly see, in an effort to preserve assets, a 'Letter to the Congregation' detailing new procedures for Judical Committee formation.

  What are your rights as a JW?

  1. You don't have to appear

  2. If you do appear, you don't have to answer any questions unless you choose to.

  3. You have the right to defend yourself.

  4. The two witnesses (NOT ONE) who accused you must be present. (Think about it: the Bible says 'at the MOUTH of two witnesses') You have the right to question the two witnesses.

  This last right is the one most often overlooked and ignored by the Smelders and has led to many df'gs.

  A Judicial Committee should not even be formed (according to THEIR rules) unless:

  1. There were two witnesses to establish the fact, and those witnesses have already come to you in an effort to resolve the issue (read Matt 18)

  2. There is a matter in which a member of the congregation has been arrested and is awaiting trial.

  Everything else is open to conjecture, including number two.

  Individual JWs must assert their rights if they don't want to be run roughshod over.

  Once, a JC was formed about me for a trivial matter. I asked about the two witnesses, turned out there was only one. I asked about that one, and why they were not there to confront me and had infact ignored Matt. 18 which states that the first step is to COME TO ME.

  The elders informed me "That person is afraid of you and feels you would make it hard for them in the congregation if their name is revealed."

  My answer? "Then we don't have anything to talk about now, do we?"
• 

  rondoggy

  Except if you remain silent, they will disfellowship you anyway.
  What most people do not know is that if you are charged with causing a division in the congregation they can form a judicial comittee and disfellowship you without you being present or having knowledge of the Judicial meeting. Using this secret trumped up charge, anyone at anytime can be disfellowshipped. Also if you refuse to attend their little Judicial hearing they view that as tantamount to pleading quilty and will disfellowship you.
  This is the way CULTS do things.
  Just some info.
  Ron
• 

  Billygoat

  Lisa,

  You have some really great points. And I don't question that JC are kangaroo courts. I've been involved in two myself and seen countless others damage people's psyche and reputations. Because if you were hauled before a JC, then you must've done something really bad, right? [>:(]

  But how can those rights affect religious beliefs and practices? I would think that they would pull the "freedom of religion" card out.

  Andi
• 

  ricoananas

  Once I was transferring my cards to another congregation because the BOE in my first one was literally a large Group of Blue Meanie Bastards run by their Gestapo PO who had recently been installed by the Concentration Camp Schutstaffel High Command in a carefully worked out Theocratic Putsch and somehow I had the idea they had a wrong slant on things and so I had to get my arse out of there. But they thought I was the one with the wrong slant, not them, and formed a Kangaroo Sendoff Party in the Disfellowshipping Room to see me off. I had decided beforehand that I would do just as Jesus did: not revile, agree with everything and offer no defense as if I had done absolutely nothing wrong. Of course what I had done wrong was refuse to kiss arse but other than that nothing really chargeable. It worked! All eight of them were so dumfounded that I was not reacting badly to them that all they could do was sputter, mutter and then send me off in peace. I really don't know why I didn't get it THEN like I got it NOW, but better late than never turned out to be true for me. How blissful I am now! Guess I never will be an ORGANIZATION MAN after all, JT.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Hey Rico, I like the way you wrote that up!

  No, Lisa, I have to politely and non-confrontationally disagree with you. Surely you are not suggesting that Miranda applies to the Grand Theocrats serving the Invisible King, do you? Where are these rights spelled out? The Bible doesn't count, because we can't understand the Bible without a Watchtower representative at our side.

  So, while your list of "rights" is biblical:
  

  What are your rights as a JW?

  1. You don't have to appear

  2. If you do appear, you don't have to answer any questions unless you choose to.

  3. You have the right to defend yourself.

  4. The two witnesses (NOT ONE) who accused you must be present. (Think about it: the Bible says 'at the MOUTH of two witnesses') You have the right to question the two witnesses.

  (By the way, I notice that a person does not have a right against self-incrimination. Imagine refusing to answer a JC question!)

  I would say that that is THEORY and that the rights do not exist in FACT. I wonder how many disfellowshippings or reprovals have ever been reversed on appeal because of procedural irregularities?