John 1:18 - New International vs New World Translation

by besty 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  reniaa

  chalam you take scriptures out of the context of their usage now look at john14:20

  John 14:20 (New International Version)

  20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

  by your logic that would makes us god too because you take Jesus saying he will be 'in God' to be a declaration of his Godness yet he then goes to say we will be in him and he in us. the context is clearly showing it is not the conclusion you would put on it.

  Trinitarians will try to twist an verse that has the 'father, holy spirit, and son in them to try and link them to the doctrine even when clearly they are nothing to do with the doctrine. this is a scene of Jesus's baptism were God is blessing his beloved son and the holy spirit Gods power is given to Jesus. It shows nothing more and nothing less.
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  Narkissos

  I still believe that the major translation problem in the Gospel of John and the Prologue in particular lies with theos.

  In the target language (here English) there is a clear-cut dichotomy between (1) "God" in the monotheistic pattern and (2) "a god, gods" in the polytheistic pattern. It's an either/or alternative. Using the capital "G" or the lower case "g" (with either the indefinite article or the plural number) implies a decision between those two models, which is practically impossible to avoid. In English "God" is not "a god," "a god" is not "God".

  There is no such dichotomy in the way the Fourth Gospel uses theos. As the "deaf dialogue" above shows, what theos stands for clearly extends from the "Father" to the "Son" and to the "elect" -- it can be used as a predicate for other subjects than the "Father," both in the anarthrous singular (1:1) and plural (10:32ff) forms, without meaning something else... And this of course is essential to the understanding of Johannine theology, which is neither "Trinitarian" nor "Unitarian" in the 4th-century sense (inasmuch as both concepts rest on an absolute separation between "God" as creator and creature as "non-God," due to the parting of ways between Gnosticism and Orthodoxy in the 2nd century) but inclusive. A "multi-unitarianism" or a "polymonotheism" which the English word "G/god" is unable to express.
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  Chalam

  Hi Reniaa,

  OK I'll leave you with this for now. Read slowly and mull it over before you reply :)

  John 14:15-26 (New International Version)

  Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

  15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— When the Counselor comes to believers, He will be with us forever. 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Same deal, the Holy Spirit will live with us and in us. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Now Jesus says the same thing but that He is coming to us. Jesus and His Holy Spirit are one and the same. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. Jesus re-iterates the point, He will live within the believer and cause us to live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Several layers here, all to do with the Holy Spirit. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

  22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

  23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

  Now Jesus is saying "we will come" to the believer!

  Just to recap, in verse 17 Jesus says the Holy Spirit comes to us. Then in verse 18 Jesus says that He Himself is coming to us. Now in verse 23 Jesus says the Father is coming to us.

  I would use the "T" word here but that is like a red rag to a bull. However, I am sure you can see that Jesus says that three different persons are coming to the believer, the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father?

  24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

  25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

  Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus' name! Awesome.

  OK I am going to take my own advise and catch some more rays :)

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  reniaa

  chalam my point stands you separate to expression in the same chapter that are clearly linked.

  John 14:9-31 (New International Version)

  9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

  15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be [ a ] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

  22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

  23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

  25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

  28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
  "Come now; let us leave.

  he even qualifies it by refering to the first expression by saying he is in the father and so they would be in him and he in them as well.
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  Deputy Dog

  Trinitarian have to explain a whole bible theme of Jesus being born of God as his beloved son the Firstborn of creation and to fit what they believe that God is 3 in one, which doesn't even appear as a doctrine in the bible!

  I would be glad take that challenge, if Reniaa would explain what the term "firstborn" means in the bible.

  Example:

  Psa 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shallbe with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27Also I will make him myfirstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

  Does it have anything to do with being born? David was the youngest.

  Is it possible for a girl to be firstborn?
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  besty

  Thanks Leo and Nark - beyoind what you have written I don't think there is much more to say on John 1:18

  As others have commented this debate has raged for 2000 years (give or take) - it is beyond the power of believers not to argue about this sort of thing.
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  Narkissos

  I think it might be interesting to point to some of the echoes and reminiscences of this verse from / in Johannine literature:

  No one has ever seen God.
  -> the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form, and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe him whom he has sent. (5:37f).
  -> It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. (6:45f).
  -> No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us. (1 John 4:12).
  a/the unique(monogenès)
  -> And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son (monogenous para patros), full of grace and truth. (1:14)
  -> For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son (ton huion ton monogenè), so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (3:16)
  -> God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. (1 John 4:9).
  G/god (theos)
  -> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was G/god. (1:1)
  -> For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God (ison heauton poiôn tô theô). (5:18).
  -> he Jews answered, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God (poieis seauton theon). (10:33)
  -> Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God (ho theos mou)!" (20:28).
  -> And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:20f).
  who is (ho ôn, present, local)
  -> No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man [who is (ho ôn) in heaven]. (3:13, variant reading).
  -> where I am, you cannot come (7:34ff)
  -> the Father is in me and I am in the Father. (10:38; 14:10f,20; 17:21 etc.)
  -> where I am, there will my servant be also (12:26).
  -> so that where I am, there you may be also. (14:3).in(to) the Father's bosom (eis ton kolpon tou patros)
  -> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with/against God (pros ton theon) and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with/against God. (1:1f).
  -> Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. (5:19)-> One of his disciples--the one whom Jesus loved--was reclining against his bosom (en tô kolpô tou Ièsou). (13:23)
  explained (exègèsato)
  (Just too many parallels for the role of the Johannine Christ as revealer of God / the Father, starting with 1:14 and culminating in chapters 12, 14, 17.)
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  Leolaia

  Narkissos....What are your thoughts about the meaning of monogenés? It has been quite well-established in the lexicographical literature the proper sense is "unique, only" instead of "only begotten" (on the strength of translation equivalents from Hebrew to Greek in the LXX and from Greek to Latin in the Old Latin), some noting that the translation of "only begotten" rests on a misunderstanding of the word's etymology. The usage of the word clearly pertains to offspring in general, but the sense seems to be closer to "only child" as the unique child of a particular class than the only child begotten by a parent (with Hebrews 11:17 forming one oft-cited proof text in support of this). In the Fourth Gospel, the uniqueness of the Son is evident in the fact that followers are termed tekna rather than huioi, with the Son being the only unique huios who alone has an intimate relationship with the Father ("in the bosom of the Father"). But I have my doubts that monogenés has nothing to do with begetting. Bearing in mind the close relationship of the Johannine Prologue with the Trimorphic Protennoia (with both possibly deriving from a common proto-gnostic source or at least both utilizing a similar exegetical approach to Genesis 1), I am interested in the way that Monogenes is used as a name in Sethian gnosticism alongside similar names like Autogenes and Allogenes. Allogenes, as the progenitor of people of a different race, fits well with the understanding of Monogenes as "one of a kind", but I am not so sure about Autogenes, which is regularly interpreted as meaning "Self-generated", which accords well with the mythology of the birth of Autogenes as produced spontaneously from within Barbelo (the female counterpart of the Father), who as Autogenes is identified with Monogenes and labelled as "the firstborn son of all" who serves a demiurgical function as creating the lower aeons and archons. I haven't seen any discussion however on why Autogenes is "Self-generated" whereas Monogenes cannot be regarded as "Only-generated". Of course, I do not mean to imply that John ought to be translated in light of the gnostic texts, but I wonder if "only-begotten" is really so far off the mark as many writers have held in the past century.

  BTW, your last post made me realize something pretty awesome....the description of the Beloved Disciple reclining on Jesus' bosom, when compared with the statements about Jesus doing this with respect to the Father, can be interpreted as making the Beloved Disciple parallel to Jesus in function. On account of his closeness to the Father, Jesus could alone explain the Father. In a similar way, on account of his closeness to Jesus, the Beloved Disciple alone could bear witness to Jesus (vis-a-vis the other disciples who were not as close to him). That's an interesting connection.
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  quietlyleaving

  hi quietlyleaving I too prefer clunkiness if it is nearer the biblie truths. Just because a thing can be twisted to be translated a certain way it doesn't mean the context allows for it. with both begotten and firstborn trinity knows they have to take away the born aspect to keep their doctrine so they look for exceptions but the exceptions they use are faulty because the born thought is still there.... ephraim was still born of Jeseph. isaac was still born of abraham but its that it's the first part that can be given to another that is still BORN of the Father. But there is nothing to show Jesus is an exception quite the contrary the overwheming theme of birth and Born of God right down to him being called God's son shows he isn't an exception that he fits right in with the first meaning of firstborn and beginning and begotton. Trinitarians come from the point of view that their doctrine can only work if he is an exception so they try and twist it to make him an exception. Reniaa

  I think I can see the sincerity of trying to stay close to the text and to still try and marry it up to some sort of meaningful structure. But when we look at the translations in detail they don't seem to fully support any particular position but they do tell us a lot how about interactions with the divine.

  Its worth trying to get your head around Narkissos' post too as he, like Leo doesn't have an agenda imo (by this I'm not saying everyone else does).

  My understanding is that bible texts are best seen as allowing their contradictions to remain and to perhaps look at what the verses are saying about relationships. Relationships are not easy to define and they resist being fossilized
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  reniaa

  hi quietly leaving I think we can end up holding the magnifying glass to close and forget simple bible truths and we can then pull it to far away and blur the bible within many books written at the same time not leting the bible define itself.

  The bible says Jesus is GOD's Son basically he is the son of God, a son is never the father. how can we use the expression son of God and change it to that son being God himself it doesn't make sense and more importantly the biblie doesn't describe this anywhere.

  John 1:1 is their best effort on divinity of Christ and personally i think it quite disproves it showing Jessu is totally separate from God.

  Lol I could go on to holy spirit but trinitarians fluff holy spirit even more, gods power made into a Person to worship /sigh.

  Simplicity is truth, Show me an original bible transcript that doesn't say Jesus is God's son and then you would have my attention.

  God isn't a multple choice of three persons.

  and mary 'mother of God' tacked on for the female voters.

  Reniaa