The Power of Faith

by AllTimeJeff 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AK - Jeff

  I think we would be best served to use the term 'Htiaf', for faith is most often backwards. Looking within instead of without might serve better.

  The most prominent scripture used by my former religion in discussion of faith was Heb 11:1, "Faith is the assured expectation of of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities, though not beheld". Yet that scripture says nothing, nothing at all.

  There is no 'assured expectation of things hoped for' - no assurances ever given by apocalyptic religion have ever transpired. There is no assurance that promises or claims made in any Holy Writ are actually from God. And the only thing we can be assured of is that there will be, and have been tons of charlatan leaderships over the centuries, willing to exploit and indoctrinate any who enter the doors of the temple, church or mosque upon which they hang a 'sign of God'.

  You can 'hope for' whatever you want - but nothing will come of that.

  There is no 'evident demonstration' of 'realities'. There is no proof of the so called realities that 'are not beheld'. Every religion's 'realities' are a bit different. Some expect to gain 72 virgins in heaven. The Mormons expect to begat entire worlds and become God themself. Heaven Gate expected to fly with the aliens in the tail of Hale Bopp. Koresh thought he would start Armageddon with his personal actions. Jehovah's Witnesses wish for the blood to run as high as horses bridles as they smile at the billions of dead and inherit their homes. On and on.

  Yes, it is htiaF for me.

  Jeff
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  Thanks for the comments.

  Because this isn't the point of this thread Chalam, I won't debate the particular scripture you used here. I see that your faith is very powerful in your life.

  Many thanks :) I want a lot more! The "signs and wonders" Jesus talks about are also valid to cause people to believe too.

  However, the point you are trying to make bears a comment, as I was partly alluding to this point of view by some Christians. On the one hand, you would commend a bible reader for not taking the passage you quote literally, yet you take literally the idea of a 2nd death? To each their own, but I hardly call this selective theology superior to anyone else taking other parts of the gospels as useful. One can certainly benefit from some of the sayings attributed to Jesus without having to believe that they will die if they don't worship him.

  I understand, I fought the Lord over the second death for a while. But I let it go, who am I to judge? Did I make everything? Do I know everything? Am I qualified to judge?

  Speaking only for myself, having read the bible over 20 times, I have come to my own conclusions, and they don't match yours, with all respect. Nonetheless, it is up to each person to decide what to believe, put faith in, and how much of their precious, limited terrestrial time to invest in learning of the metaphysical...

  I understand. The big issue here is faith. All you need is a tiny seed and it will grow! Now, for me it took over 20 years to open a bible or pray, "God come and talk to me". That was about four years ago and that was the mustard seed. Once you get there, God will respond, He loves faith!

  So suspent your disbelief for a while and give it a go. Say a sincere prayer for God to talk to you and maybe open your bible (never use the NWT!), anywhere probably in the New Testament save possibly Revelation unless the Holy Spirit leads you there...

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  quietlyleaving

  thoughtfully put Jeff

  I did go down the road of having an inner "faith" but now have more faith in an outer "faith" and this latter aspect I want to retreive from my experience of faith as a JW. I don't think anyone does this better than JWs - the going out and meeting people, congregating together, focusing on nature etc. Its a shame the top brass are so narrow minded and everyday activities are tied to their narrow version of God and the scriptures.

  Chalam the faith you speak of is not for me

  ql
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  Chalam

  Hi QL,

  I found it has had the opposite effect. I am far more alive and rarely get depressed these days. As it says here

  Isaiah 55 (New International Version)

  Invitation to the Thirsty

  1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
  come to the waters;
  and you who have no money,
  come, buy and eat!
  Come, buy wine and milk
  without money and without cost.

  2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
  and your labor on what does not satisfy?
  Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
  and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.

  3 Give ear and come to me;
  hear me, that your soul may live.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  quietlyleaving

  Isaiah 55 (New International Version) Invitation to the Thirsty 1 "go, all you who are thirsty, go to the waters; and you who have no money, go, buy and eat! go, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. 2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to everything around you, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. 3 Give ear and go; hear whats around you that your soul may live. All the best, Stephen

  souls have it in them to all of that anyway whether they are christian or not but yes those are very inspiring words with a few modifications hope you don't mind
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  TheOldHippie

  I've started reading the old philosophers, beginning with Plato / Socrate, but it seems very vague and unimpressive. When I read them at a younger age, it was more awe-inspiring. Don't know what I'll find when I reach Spinoza, Descartes, Hume et al, but I guess having been a JW for a loooong time has given you a critical / cynical mindset that doesn't allow you to get caught up in anything ELSE easily. Turning that same mindset inwardly, internally, towards the JW themselves, is not that easily done - you can do it technically, intellectually, and end up on this board as many do or have done, but taking the next step and say "bye bye" isn't THAT easy. Theory - yes. Acting - no.
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  quietlyleaving

  I've read a little by those philosophers and it is amazing how much of an influence they had on thinkers closer to our time. At the moment I'm trying to get my head around a book I found in the library by Ernest Behler (translated by Steven Taubeneck) called Confrontations - Derrida Heidegger Nietzsche. I find it quite enlightening when ideas and interpretations are compared as in this book. But I don't claim to understand all of it as it is quite heavy going.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Hi there Chalam. This thread was meant to include you as a person of faith, and your expressions are welcome, even as I disagree with some of them.

  I understand, I fought the Lord over the second death for a while. But I let it go, who am I to judge? Did I make everything? Do I know everything? Am I qualified to judge?

  This might be the crux of where you and I diverge, and why I feel that some faith is not of the same quality. (I am just saying that, I don't mean that to be disrespectful, just an opinion)

  Whenever I read what you wrote (and it is a very common premise among Christian theists) "Who am I to judge? Am I qualified to judge?" I stop. Lately, I would simply answer, "Yes, you are qualified to judge."

  I read such expressions and realize that they also express a limit to what can be explained or proven. To that, ALL of us have that limitation, myself included. So in that, it seems you are prepared to "take a few items on faith", we are no different.

  However, the tradition from which your faith springs has a couple of inherent problem areas. As a former JW, I have seen first hand how group think faith, pre packaged and tied with a bow is dangerous. I am also reminded so often of how JW's are continued to encourage not to think, not to question, or to take their questions to a pre set limit.

  Thus, to promote faith in Jesus is much different imo, then personally believing him to be god. The (not so subtle) difference between the faith you and I discuss is that I strongly believe we should look inward, question, and put faith in the fact that if god exists, he is happier to have us question and doubt.

  Think about it, gods a smart person. (for arguments sake). She knows she hasn't been around, that evidence, real evidence of communication and intervention are not around. And then she gave us this brain. She wants us to use it.

  So in my view, there is no way god will ever censure us for doubting, or not believing. I would never hold it against anyone to not believe I exist if I never talk with them. Is it any different with god?

  What if the real "test" is that god wants to see who falls for man made institutions of faith, as opposed to those who figure out that god wants us to look inward instead?

  It's a totally different kind of faith at that point....
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  Witness 007

  Without a god the earth could be destroyed by a meteor any day! I could die and thats it for me! Very scary....I would rather "believe" but I cant.

  Some Witnesses have joined Islam, Born agains....Catholic church!
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  TheOldHippie

  Now THAT is some heavy stuff. But as you say, it is strange to see how the good old guys have influenced modern thinkers. Nietzsche is strongly influenced, if not to say copying, the Dionysos-cult of ancient Greece, and the struggle between the more anti-god outwardly directions and the more inwardly ones like Plato / Socrate etc. - can be seen in the present directions. The lines of thought can be followed all down thru the centuries, and some end up at Nietzsche, some in today's green movement etc.

  The cave illustration of Plato is magnificient - but as I said, I am not convinced, but that might be due to the mindset I mentioned.

  Heidegger - well, you have started on something really 'eavy there!