What if there was not DFing of apostates?

by YoYoMama 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  Utopian Reformist

  The WTBS could not allow the possibility of an "open style forum" to develop in the congregations. Questions would give rise to more questions, leading to discussions and debates, thus interrupting the scheduled "feeding" program.

  In order to maintain human support and loyalty in an endeavor, you must convince, indoctrinate, then manage and supervise the behavior and the outcomes. The WTBS could not keep the same numbers of active members once open discussion occurs.

  Therefore, individual auditing of personal beliefs is not encouraged but frowned upon as disloyalty, and thus punished administratively.

  Perhaps, after the Geritol Body has passed on, a newer more enlightened and empathic generation of JW's may begin the process that leads to mainstream change. Maybe, remember it's still a cult!
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  YoYoMama

  Some interesting comments here. So what I am understanding that it's not really a problem with being disfellowshipped or excommunicated, but the problem lies in shunning?
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  OUTLAW

  Yo-yo,Its the emotional blackmail of shunning that destroys familys.It is an evil practice...Outlaw
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  JanH

  YoYo,

  Essentially the problem is with shunning, yes. One can of course criticize the WTS over many other things in the process, but the basic evil of the DFing system is IMO the shunning.

  It is interesting to note that if an "interested one" experiences the same kind of problems from their old friends and relatives when they try to join the JWs, it is considered evil persecution. And it is, in fact, corporate policy in JWdom.

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
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  joelbear

  I agree that the idea of universal JW unity is a myth. Within my own family who are still witnesses there are differences of opinion on doctrine, organizational policy, etc. Rules differ from congregation to congregation depending on the personality of the elder body.

  If Jehovah's Witnesses stopped disfellowshipping and disassociated and said instead; okay, here are what we believe to be true doctrines and the best and most moral way to live and serve god and trusted that the power of the truth in the doctrine and in the commandments were enough to attract people to them, I think they would be quite surprised in the result. Many more people would be attracted to association. There would be a free discourse of ideas and this open discourse would lead to more discovery of truth.

  Family members, instead of fearing all contact with their relatives that are not living as Jehovah's Witnesses would be free to encourage them through association and discussion of ideas.

  Disfellowshipping and shunning is the MAJOR sign to me that the witnesses are weak in faith in their doctrines and their determination to keep god's commandments. People have to be avoided and shunned to keep their faith safe.

  Their faith is a delicate egg that can be so easily broken by a wrong word that they hear from somebody.

  Baloney. True faith in anything boldly proclaims itself.

  If no blood, no fornication, no homosexuality, etc. etc. etc. is the best way of life, then why be so terrified that people would choose another path if they associate with someone who has chosen another path. Their way of life should shine brightly as the best way and should attract people to it.

  Clearly, it doesn't. People are choosing other paths

  Joel
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  YoYoMama

  I understand the points, but still doesn't the Apostle Paul teach the practice of shunning?
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  JanH

  I understand the points, but still doesn't the Apostle Paul teach the practice of shunning?

  No.

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
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  Mulan

  Okay, I will explain what I meant by the lack of worldwide unity, as seen in Poland.

  In 1989, we had just started the complete donation arrangement, for placing literature. When we were in Poland, we learned that it was only in the United States that this policy was in effect. In Poland, they very much still charged for their literature, at the doors, and they did in all the other countries we learned about, while there. So, it was NOT so that we would be more loving in leaving the literature, but a legal loophole, thanks to other church ministries coming under scrutiny by the IRS, here. We met JW's from all over the world, at those conventions, Japan, Great Britain, Russia, Germany (East and West), and some had beards, which were allowed in their countries.

  We learned that in Romania, they were allowed to accept alternative service, from the courts, when protesting military service. In the U.S., that wasn't accepted until the mid 90's. It seemed unfair.

  We did wonder about those things. Why were we told that a beard is a worldly thing, and causes people to view the witnesses, as unsavory, but in other parts of the world, it was okay? In Romania why could a 'brother' accept a job in the coal mines, to compensate for military service, but in the States, he would have to go prison?

  I know there were more things, but time has erased them from the memory banks I can access. Sorry.

  Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
  
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  dungbeetle

  >"I understand the points, but still doesn't the Apostle Paul teach the practice of shunning?"<

  No he did not; he said not to give the 'Christian kiss greeting'to certain ones. And 'quit mixing in company' simply means that if you wish to associate with such a 'one' to do so away from the Christian Congregation. (speaking of social gatherings only)

  You questions and postings indicate to me that you you STILL do not understand the points. Give yourself some more time.

  I really wish Jehovah's Witnesses and their supporters would make use of their Kingdom Interlinear Translation, at least it's one step closer to the original.

  HOW MANY TIMES DO I GOTTA SAY IT: JESUS NO SPEAKA DA ENGLISH...

  love and hugs..

  BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
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  hillary_step

  Hello YYW,

  As you can read from some of the answers to your thread, the matter of disfellowshiping and the subsequent shunning involved, is not quite as simple an issue to understand as you may have been led to believe by the WTS.

  If you carefully research its theological history as developed by the WTS, you will find it interesting that they themselves have changed many aspects of disfellowshiping and shunning over the years, often reversing policies on various aspects of their disciplinary process.

  If the issue was a clear as you have been led to believe would this be happening with a doctrinal feature so important that according to the WTS ones life depends on it? You owe it to yourself to look into this matter carefully, after all, your own family may become involved in this problem at some time.

  As to the matter of disfellowshiping 'apostates', that you mentioned at the outset in your questions, this issue again must be looked at carefully to ascertain whether the WTS through its Judicial Committees is not in actual fact punishing the innocent. That is why I posed certain questions to you at the beggining of this thread.

  If they are found wanting in this area, justice cries at them from the grave, as I have personally known a number of suicides that have resulted from this process.

  As you know, JW's commonly use the word 'Truth' and describe themselves as 'Truth Seekers'. We only ask that you YYW, live up to the labels that have been vested on you.

  Kind regards -- HS