I'd go for it! Are JWs generally aware this book exists? (I wasn't until I happened upon this site - but then I never sought out ex-JW material, so am assuming the average JW wouldn't either). When I've mentioned the GB to a couple of JWs, they have no idea who the members are (or how many, or names)...is that a UK thing though...?
Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM 19 Replies latest jw friends
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JWdaughter
If you want to stay out of the JC, don't offer up your personal copy. You might be able to mention it in the context of "I heard that a former GB wrote a big book about his experience in Bethel and as a GB member that isn't hateful. Have you ever seen Crisis of Conscience? Yeah, I heard he was actually related to the president and was DF'd for eating dinner with his boss who had just been DF'd. I wonder what the story is behind that? Do you think he lied or told the truth? Did they sue him?
You could go all over piquing curiosity w/o promoting it in a way to get you DF'd, but makes sure you have informed them of it.None of that is false to you or them. I still wonder what it would be like to be a fly on the wall back in 1980 at Bethel! And I have read the book too.
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LUKEWARM
BabaYagaThank you for your words of wisdom - you have summed up my situation nicely!
Yes, it worries me that my passion about the newly found truths will alienate them. I want to free them from the unnecessary slavery to a human organization which has gone "beyond the things written" and imposed "traditions of men" on its membership under the guise of "Jah's Theocratic Law".
So far, I have given "Crisis" and "Christian Freedom" to one close friend (Elder) recently. His eyes have been opened reading the first book - he can no longer parrot the WT line and is now questioning what to believe. We have had numerous discussions - I tell him the second book (still in the closet) will crystallise everything for him beyond reasonable doubt. He tells me he will get around to reading it but I sense the uneasiness as he comes to terms with the gravity of the real truth sets in and he faces his own crossroads.
Thanks for suggesting I investigate cognitive dissonance and the Hassan book as I want to help other friends and I need all the help I can get!
leavingwtYour comments are interesting about the org being one part of the equation - the mind control is the other part. I guess my focus has been on doctrine and the org as I assumed the other part would naturally follow...
Have heard about Hassan but have not got around to purchasing his material. I understand he has written 2 books. Do you recommend I read both?
Black SheepI feel sorry for them - they are brainwashed as I once was, so am trying to keep talking, posing questions, and providing snippets of research which they can process. As you rightfully indicate, once somebody is viewed as "spiritually weak" or is in the process of fading, the things said no longer carry any weight...
purplesofaThank you for your comments and well done on your progress!
Can you elaborate more on how you have made/introduced all those placements and what the results have been?
You are right that it would be inappropriate to push my view on others. My objective here is to tactfully arouse their curiosity and interest about the real truth and as such to educate themselves about the issues. What they choose to do after that is their prerogative.
My approach has been to introduce something that "I found interesting" and telling them that "I would be interested in their thoughts" - even to correct me if they feel my thinking is wrong...
Your caution is warranted though...
garybussYou are a Meany :)
JabberwockyGood thinking and it would be appropriate to have this in a library, although I was thinking of capitalising on friendship and reputation to assist my immediate friends and those I care for to see the truth while we are still around...
Your suggestion about the 2 chapters of "crisis" available online are good! And the PDF version is a possible progression depending on their reaction to read the free stuff first - thank you!
JamiebowersI'm sorry to hear of your situation and I wish I could help your mum! Seems like the Hassan book is valuable - will look to buy it before we go on holidays so I can read it thoroughly, educate myself and apply the methodology. What avenues did you think would work on your mum?
BizzybeeThank your lovely response and compliments! You use the word "envy" but sometimes I feel selfish for holding back - in this instance worrying about being disfellowshipped if the weakest link seeks the help of the elders due to a troubled conscience resulting from my "placement".
Yes, these are people the Mrs and I are close with and they feel free to express themselves in our company considering we are liberal in the way we talk about the JW treadmill of activity eg "oh another boring service meeting and they never finish on time"
The "ham and eggs" analogy is a good one as its always difficult to play those damn cards right or if they should be played at all!
MidwichCuckooYou are spot on! I only became aware of Ray Franz on this site - they have no idea that he exists and his style of writing is dignified and powerful...
JWdaughterThank you for your post and good suggestions!
I wonder if they would order the book if left to their own devices - yeah in 10 years when they are exhausted from being on the organizational treadmill they might remember our conversations and investigate...
I know what a huge barrier it was for me to purchase the book considering I viewed it as "apostate"! But I figured the "truth" should and can stand up to anything. How wrong I was!!
As you say, it's a fine line between giving them this info and getting myself DF'd...
Agh, I would hate for it to blow up but at the same time if my friend had this info and did not share it with me because of the potential cost to him/her personally then how selfish and uncaring would that be!! -
LUKEWARM
Sorry, this one might be a little easier to read...
BabaYaga
Thank you for your words of wisdom – you have summed up my situation nicely!
Yes, it worries me that my passion about the newly found truths will alienate them. I want to free them from the unnecessary slavery to a human organization which has gone “beyond the things written” and imposed “traditions of men” on its membership under the guise of “Jah’s Theocratic Law”.
So far, I have given “Crisis” and “Christian Freedom” to one close friend (Elder) recently. His eyes have been opened reading the first book – he can no longer parrot the WT line and is now questioning what to believe. We have had numerous discussions - I tell him the second book (still in the closet) will crystallise everything for him beyond reasonable doubt. He tells me he will get around to reading it but I sense the uneasiness as he comes to terms with the gravity of the real truth sets in and he faces his own crossroads.
Thanks for suggesting I investigate cognitive dissonance and the Hassan book as I want to help other friends and I need all the help I can get!
leavingwt
Your comments are interesting about the org being one part of the equation - the mind control is the other part. I guess my focus has been on doctrine and the org as I assumed the other part would naturally follow…
Have heard about Hassan but have not got around to purchasing his material. I understand he has written 2 books. Do you recommend I read both?
Black Sheep
I feel sorry for them – they are brainwashed as I once was, so am trying to keep talking, posing questions, and providing snippets of research which they can process. As you rightfully indicate, once somebody is viewed as “spiritually weak” or is in the process of fading, the things said no longer carry any weight…
purplesofa
Thank you for your comments and well done on your progress!
Can you elaborate more on how you have made/introduced all those placements and what the results have been?
You are right that it would be inappropriate to push my view on others. My objective here is to tactfully arouse their curiosity and interest about the real truth and as such to educate themselves about the issues. What they choose to do after that is their prerogative.
My approach has been to introduce something that “I found interesting” and telling them that “I would be interested in their thoughts” – even to correct me if they feel my thinking is wrong…
Your caution is warranted though…
garybuss
You are a Meany J
Jabberwocky
Good thinking and it would be appropriate to have this in a library, although I was thinking of capitalising on friendship and reputation to assist my immediate friends and those I care for to see the truth while we are still around…
Your suggestion about the 2 chapters of “crisis” available online are good! And the PDF version is a possible progression depending on their reaction to read the free stuff first – thank you!
Jamiebowers
I’m sorry to hear of your situation and I wish I could help your mum! Seems like the Hassan book is valuable – will look to buy it before we go on holidays so I can read it thoroughly, educate myself and apply the methodology. What avenues did you think would work on your mum?
Bizzybee
Thank your lovely response and compliments! You use the word “envy” but sometimes I feel selfish for holding back – in this instance worrying about being disfellowshipped if the weakest link seeks the help of the elders due to a troubled conscience resulting from my “placement”.
Yes, these are people the Mrs and I are close with and they feel free to express themselves in our company considering we are liberal in the way we talk about the JW treadmill of activity eg “oh another boring service meeting and they never finish on time”
The “ham and eggs” analogy is a good one as its always difficult to play those damn cards right or if they should be played at all! MidwichCuckoo
You are spot on! I only became aware of Ray Franz on this site – they have no idea that he exists and his style of writing is dignified and powerful…
JWdaughter
Thank you for your post and good suggestions!
I wonder if they would order the book if left to their own devices – yeah in 10 years when they are exhausted from being on the organizational treadmill they might remember our conversations and investigate…
I know what a huge barrier it was for me to purchase the book considering I viewed it as “apostate”! But I figured the “truth” should and can stand up to anything. How wrong I was!!
As you say, it’s a fine line between giving them this info and getting myself DF’d…
Agh, I would hate for it to blow up but at the same time if my friend had this info and did not share it with me because of the potential cost to him/her personally then how selfish and uncaring would that be!!
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thomas15
Even for me, as a non-JW reading C of C was painful in some respects. I have a co-worker friend in the org., but no family. So to a person with many family members, friends and years of time in who are not ready to know what the book contains, it would probably cause a brain explosion.
I think that the key statement LUKEWARM gives in the OP is: Been using the watchtower recently (sometimes during or right after the meeting or sending them SMS or email) asking my friends something like: Did you notice XYZ in paragraph 11? How did they come up with that when the Bible says ABC...
Keep in mind that I totally lack any real personal experience with the WT. For me, any discussion with a JW is going to require Biblical proof, not just a Bible refrence. Any JW that knocks on my door is going to have laid before them a copy of the Nit Wit Translation (TM), KI (1969 version), a Watchtower produced American Standard Version and my trusty New King James Version. So my suggestion would be to get a copy of a WT printed American Standard or King James and carry that and start really studying the refrences that the WT gives. Your friends will see you doing this and ask you what is going on, instead of you having to start the conversation. You could say that you really want to start mining the truth of the religion for everything it is worth. But do this in a matter-of-fact way, without fanfare.
For myself and many of my Evangelical friends, when we study the Bible, we really dig into the verses and can spend an hour wrestling with one verse. Not too long ago, as an example, I read 1 John every day for 60 days. I keep a notebook handy and make notes as I go. This would work better for me I think because this is how I normally approach the Bible. And there is one concept that the Bible teaches that must be kept in mind and that is found in Matt. 16, after Peter correctly answers the question Jesus asks "who do you think I am?", Jesus tells Peter where this knowledge comes from. Read this passage, study it for all it's worth and know that only a person who is truly committed to the realibility of the Scriptures will accept what Jesus teaches here. The sledgehammer approach will not work with anyone who is not committed to the truth of the Bible no matter how involved in a religion they are.
In my opinion, it comes down to either the Truth of the Bible or the truth of the WT. The two truths are not in agreement. Exploit that disagreement, put your trust in the solid ground of the Bible and let the WT sink under it's own weight. And by the way, if you happen to be trusting in Jesus as your Lord and Savior same as Peter, the most powerful tool you have in your arsonal is prayer. So, lock and load my friend.
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LUKEWARM
Appreciate your comments thomas15,
Laughed at your comment about the book having the potential to "probably cause a brain explosion"! This is so true in the case of a JW who has not been exposed to the real issues as the WTS always just demonises apostates - they never elaborate what the disagreements with their teachings are so this breeds fear and ignorance.
You are right "it comes down to either the Truth of the Bible or the truth of the WT. The two truths are not in agreement" - getting a JW to educate themselves about where the scriptures deviate from the WTS teaching is the problem as they have been convinced that they don't understand the Bible and that Jah has set up "His Organization" to provide understanding.
I have reasoned with some that the things that are important are plainly stated by Jesus for Christians in the Bible - they require no interpretation - why would God have provided the book if the critical things are convoluted requiring some interpretation by imperfect humans? The things that are unclear (like Revelation) must not be that important for us otherwise it would have been made clear... -
undercover
I agree that if you don't want to get called "on the carpet", it would be best to keep your copy of CoC confidential, or at the most, share it only with people you totally trust. The more you share it, or even show it, to people still in, the more chances for someone to rat you out.
Your first sentence:
About 12 months ago I ordered the book. I thought I was sinning against God - showing a lack of faith in Him and in his organization. I prayed to Jah to forgive me
proves that this religion is a cult. How many people, myself included, felt guilt and fear when they came into possesion of this book? It's a book, for crying out loud...and yet we were conditioned to fear it...and to feel guilty for reading it, even holding it.
As I said, if you're in and don't want flack, don't flaunt this book. But if you're ready to take a stand, just lay that book out on your coffee table and let any and all see it. It won't take long before you'll be questioned, interrogated, inquisitioned and disfellowshipped...
...all for owning a book.
Tell me JWs aren't a cult now...
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MikeMusto
I start planting the seed after a convention
they will ask......."wasn't that a great convention"
and i will usually respond
"i have heard better"
that prepares them for the mental karate i lay on them down the road
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leavingwt
leavingwtYour comments are interesting about the org being one part of the equation - the mind control is the other part. I guess my focus has been on doctrine and the org as I assumed the other part would naturally follow...
Have heard about Hassan but have not got around to purchasing his material. I understand he has written 2 books.It is difficult to grasp this, but I can tell you that for MOST cult members, their entrapment has exactly NOTHING to do with doctrinal details/facts/reality/truth. It's all smoke and mirrors and the details DON'T matter. (How many active elders can explain 1914? Blood fractions? Etc.) It's all about LOYALTY to the leadership. It's about maintaining an acceptable STATUS, being in "good standing" with the congregation.
If you do nothing else, please read Chapter 4 of Combatting Cult Mind Control. It may really whet your appetite and help you explore an entire field of knowledge you were previously unaware of. From my own personal perspective, after reading the book, the behavior of my (former) JW friends and family is somewhat predictable. Their behavior has nothing to do with REALITY and everything to do with the CONTROL exerted over them by WT.
In general, you probably feel that if you can make your loved ones AWARE of what you know, they'll want to leave the WT organization. Nothing is further from the truth. From day one in the cult, they have been conditioned/prepared to respond to critical information. They practice Thought Stopping, they refuse to dwell on it, they refuse to really absorb the information and process it. Moreover, they easily dismiss any particular detail regarding doctrinal errors/contradictions. This is easy as duck soup to them. They are 100% committed to the concept that WT is God's organization and that there is a completely Biblical and logical explanation for any seemingly contradictory information.
I have successfully assisted two people in leaving the WT organization. However, in both cases, these individuals were feeling the pain of being the WT cage. It is nearly impossible to awaken a cult member that is very happy within the cult. No matter what you're offering, it will appear unsatisfying to them. Lies are often very comforting. Not to mention the tremendous emotional/financial/social investment that most longtime cult members have made in the organization.
Hassan's second book is certainly valuable. However, I would start with the first one. It's available for less than $10 bucks on Amazon, in paperback, used. This book was every bit as much of a game-changer as CoC was, for me personally.
-LWT
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LUKEWARM
undercoverThanks for the advice - the people I have in mind are 3 families we are close with but the risk is always there that it is leaked to the elders...
MikeMustoHahaaaaaa - Bet they done expect that one! Perhaps I should use that one too...
leavingwtIn my case I was not aware of the history of the WTS and its failed prophecies - after spending time here and reading both of Rays books, it struck me immediately that they are not "directed".
However, we are all different and I have heard so much about Hassan so I will definitely purchase both of his books as I seek the best way to get my friends to see the real truth
Looking forward to, as you put it, exploring an entire field of knowledge I am unaware of.
Thanks for your assistance and advice