I'm bemused - Vladimir Putin as a Christian Warrior - Do Russians see him as a fighter for Jesus?

by fulltimestudent 29 Replies latest social current

  • edmond dantes
    edmond dantes

    I didn't say I liked and admired Soviet Russia .

    All power corrupts even in the West we need checks and balances .

    For the intelligence service to spy on the population en masse in Russia is a criminal offense .

    Big Brother mentioned in the book 1984 was written as a warning not as an instruction on how to spy on our every move.

    Why if we in the West live by the rule of law did we invade Iraq when it was voted against in the UN.

  • Miles
    Kail, you are too bitter to have a balanced view of this subject. I have a funny feeling you from Poland.
  • fulltimestudent

    Interesting cross section of opinions, thank you all for your thoughts. My questions are these:

    My questions are these:

    1.What does the average Russian think of Putin?

    2. Is the Russian Orthodox church supporting Putin? If yes!, then why?

    Like Edmond Dantes, I neither admire or necessarily like Russia. But I would like to understand Russia, honestly and objectively, and not just succumb to undemonstrated assertions.

    Two years ago, I enrolled in a study of the Byzantine empire, and the former convenor of the study unit (a Dr. Ken Parry) challenged us (his students) to attempt to understand how the Eastern Roman Empire's intellectual principles had survived in Eastern Europe and Russia. The messianic west believes its ideals are universal truths. But that's only the west's understanding. The rest of the word does not speak English or related latin/germanic based languages

    Kaik thinks that, Russia "is driven by messianic complex to subject everyone. Dear me, couldn't such a statement equally describe the colonising powers of the nineteenth century, which includes the USA.

    Kaik, also thinks that the Russian economy is about to collapse. It may, but I have my doubts, the sheer size of the energy contract between China and Russia could indicate the opposite. The very Fast Train line to be built between Beijing and Moscow will add another strand of connectivity between China and Europe, and it will likely be the nucleus of another belt of prosperity that China seems intent on building out from their borders. Will the Chinese succeed? We will have to wait and see.

    Village Idiot thinks that he has heard Putin is the richest man in the world. Hmmm! I've heard it said (before) that the former Chinese premier, Wen Jiaobao was the richest man? Both statements are unverifiable.

    However, it does seem that George Washington, was not only the richest man in the English colonies, but that he gained immeasurable additional wealth as a result of American Independence. (See Howard Zinn's," A People's History of the United States.") Does that item of information affect the American view of Washington?

  • DJS

    The average Russian isn't much different than the average American when it comes to liking politicians. Rattling sabers will almost always increase popularity, and Vlad knows this well. After some of his little green men shot down the wrong plane, the sanctions and the free fall of oil prices Vlad was in a serious funk. What better way to get yourself out of it than to conduct some 'fly-bys', blame the W and rattle some more sabers.

    That will help his popularity until it doesn't. Russians are used to malaise and 'suffering' that would make the typical American scream for anarchy, or at least immediate change. Many in Russia believe the energy contract makes Russia the poor commodity provider slave to the Chinese in this process. Providing the raw materials rather than making the stuff is a losers' strategy, but Vlad is addicted to oil revenues. Until the Russian economy diversifies and loses its cocaine like addiction to easy oil $$ their economy will always be tenuously tied to sanctions, cartels, recessions and of course the price of the cocaine, I mean oil.

    Vlad has also arranged things so that he is essentially a dictator who deals ruthlessly with challengers. He has shown that he can be an astute and pragmatic politico when needed, but people tend to default to their real selves when pressured - and he is feeling a lot of pressure right now.

    Vlad is one scary mofo, and there are times when a lot of people, including me, wonder how far he will go. He is a cold blooded murderer, based on intel. And he does it with panache that for some reason attracts a lot of admirers.

    So FTS, the Russian issue right now is centered around one personality, so it is difficult to speak rationally about Russia itself, which I believe most of the W world want to see succeed.

  • kaik
    Miles, if you be more educated, you would know that USSR in 1968 occupied Czechoslovakia. We had half million of troops there in the streets, uninvited and unwelcome. For another 20 years, we had Russians all over. I walked every day on my way to school by buildings in downtown of Prague burned by Soviets. My stepdad brother was killed by these troops. Whatever funny feeling you have about it, is irrelevant to me, but still it makes you utterly disgusting existence.
  • kaik
    FTS, Russia never was prosperous country, it was always mess. Read what travelers wrote about it in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century. I was there. I know how this country look. I drove to Moscow from Central Europe and back. I was at the Black Sea region. It is backward country and not amount of nuclear weapons they possess would change that. Even back than under communism was officially published that living standard in Russia was on per level of South American country. All Slavs are better off than Russia. Czechs, Poles, Slovenes, and Slovaks have much higher living standard. Your FTS fascination that China and Russia would control the world and master of West and USA belongs to fairy tales. Back 50 years ago Russians used to claim that will surpass USA. Today they will be happy if their economy and worthless ruble would not collapse and they wont be back to rations as I had seen back then. USA/UK/EU can destroy Russian currency by ending their convertibility at NY, London, and Frankfurt.
  • kaik

    DJS, Russia resembles much of the interwar Nazi Germany by destabilizing their neighboring countries. FTS and many other Russian apologists think that it is OK, because everyone has done that. Two wrongs never make it right.

    Russia was always a country with dictator. The population will consider him something like holy father, or Vatushka, who blesses their country (while they live in misery). And they worship him and they will die for him. Putin is destroying Russia, but they do not care. They love him and adore him. And orthodox Christianity supports this status position. Freedom, individualism, personal responsibility for own well being, and democracy never came from society which is derived from it. Actually, they oppose any freedom and democracy due losing control over the population. There is no single country in the world with Orthodox Christianity that has prosperous economy or stable political system. I think I have been every of them from Greece through Balkans and Russia to regions along the Black Sea: Greece is leaching EU. Bulgaria and Romania are 3rd world countries. Ukraine and Russia are engaged in warfare. Serbs were in constant war with their neighbors and still posses threat to Balkan instability. Where are Slovenia (Catholic), Estonia (Protestant), Czech (Agnostic) and all these Orthodox countries now? They were under the same political system, yet only one group is prospering and improving their living standard without the need to occupy and invade others.

    Russians are driven by messianic complex (which BTW is known since mid 19th century and well documented by numerous people studying Russian subject). No Slavic nation likes Russia, because there is always threat of enslavement. In August 1848 one the most prominent Slavic writer in Austrian Empire, Karel Havlíček Borovský, wrote after his visit of Russia: "Russia can be the foremost country in the world, if free and ruled by laws. However, it is not, and thus must be treated for us, free Slavs in the [Austrian] monarchy, as the most utter enemy."

  • fulltimestudent
    kaik: FTS and many other Russian apologists think that it is OK, because everyone has done that.

    Really? You think what I said makes me an apologist?

    kaik: Putin is destroying Russia, but they do not care. They love him and adore him. And orthodox Christianity supports this status position.

    So you agree that Putin has mass public support within Russia?

    Kaik: Your FTS fascination that China and Russia would control the world and master of West and USA belongs to fairy tales.

    Again, I don't ever think I've claimed that China + Russia wants to/will control the world. I can't/dont want to comment on Russia by itself. Looking at Russia, after the collapse of the old Soviet union and the demise of Yeltsin, Russia only seems to get involved in quarrels when there are populations with a Russian majority involved (Georgia and Ukraine) More, in fact, i think I've specifically said that China has a long way to go before it equals the wealth of the USA. And, there is also, a long way to go before all Chinese have a reasonable share of prosperity. I've also said that I see nothing in contemporary China that makes me think they want to take over other countries, like ( to illustrate what I mean) the Japanese attempted to make Korea a province of Japan between 1910 and 1945. And, if we get down to the nitty-gritty, perhaps the USA has more to fear from Japan than China. Why? For this reason, the USA humiliated the Japanese elite in WW2, but allowed them to continue ruling Japan. I think that they (the elite) may work with the USA, but may never forgive the USA for their defeat. If I was Uncle Sam, I'd walk with eyes in the back of my head.

    Anyway back to the point, what I believe I do see in connection with Chinese foreign affairs, is an attempt to build prosperity in bordering nations, in the belief that prosperous people have less reason to want to wage wars. China has one of the longest borders in the world, with more unstable neighbours than anyone else (hence the reason they think they need a large army). The modern silkroad policy is an attempt to stabilise their neighbours by sharing some prosperity. Is that good?

  • fulltimestudent

    As for the religious aspect, how interesting that in the UK, an extreme right-winger has commented on Russia as the saviour of Christianity.

    I do not neccessarily agree with any or all of these statements, I use them to challenge conventional wisdom about Russia.

    Some people make all kinds of assertion, but often without much evidence for what they claim.

    From today's, Independent

    Link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exbnp-leader-nick-griffin-tells-rightwing-conference-russia-will-save-europe-10128994.html?fb_action_ids=10153140883550729&fb_action_types=og.shares

    Ex-BNP leader Nick Griffin tells right-wing conference Russia will save Europe
    Undeterred by his waning power over the extremist right-wing in the UK, Nick Griffin has kept with his cause by declaring that Russia will save “Christendom”.
    The former BNP leader was expelled from the organisation last year, after members accused him of attempting to “destabilise” it and of “harassing” its membership.
    Griffin responded by accusing the party leadership of playing “plastic gangster games”.
    At the International Russian Conservative Forum in St Petersbury (they mean St. Petersburg) over the weekend, which was organised by a pro-Kremlin ultranationalist party, Griffin warned the audience that Christendom would succumb to “a terrible civil war”, become and Islamist caliphate “or perhaps both”, BuzzFeed reported.
    He added that “the survival of Christendom” is “absolutely impossible without the rise of the Third Rome: Moscow.”
    Roberto Fiore of Italy’s Forza Nuova, mirrored Griffin’s comments at the event, and claimed that Moscow is currently the only nation guarding what he regards to be Western values in the way Rome once did.
    “It’s not me saying this—it’s God saying it,” he said, the Wall Street Journal reported.Chairman of Italy's party 'New Force' Roberto Fiore speaks during the International Russian Conservative Forum (OLGA MALTSEVA/AFP/Getty Images)Chairman of Italy's party 'New Force' Roberto Fiore speaks during the International Russian Conservative Forum (OLGA MALTSEVA/AFP/Getty Images)
    In an interview with the US newspaper, Griffin said Russia is “more free” than the West as a similar event would be banned in the US or the UK.
    Other guests included Udo Voigt, a senior figure in Germany’s extreme-right National Democratic Party, and members of the ultra-right Greek party Golden Dawn.
    Speakers at the event mirrored Russian President Vladimir Putin's recent message that the West is facing a “profound moral crisis, and argued that the region is also blighted by ill including abortion, atheism, Freemasonry, and unbridled immigration that, if unchecked, will wipe out the Caucasian race.
  • fulltimestudent
    edmond dantes said: Gorbachev has said that it will take 10 to 15 years for Russia to gain full democracy .They should be assisted and encouraged.

    Really? Only 15 years?

    In the Anglosphere, many call the Magna Carta, the first step to democracy. That was 1215 - so if we count the years to something like our modern western 'democracy' it has taken 700 years.

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