Counting Time: Is it Scriptural? (page 2)

DaCheech

David's censure brought severe punishment to the people

winstonchurchill

No, It is NOT!

In the late 90's Henschel wanted to nix the whole reporting thing.

As BLONDIE points, WTS base this on scriptures that show that they counted how many were fed, how many were baptized, etc.

However:

- In those accounts data is not statistically or even numerically accurate. "5,000 men were fed, plus women and children"; so, do we know actually how many were fed??? No. Same with "3,000 were baptized...". Not 5,001, not 2,999, but EXACTLY 3,000, 4,000, 5,000. No one more, no one less.Probably it was a very good, God-Inspired GUESS-TIMATE. Apparently people existed in chunks of Thousands.

My point is that those accounts in the scriptures are INFORMATIVE, NOT STATISTICAL. They are there to give you an VERY CLOSE IDEA, but not an exact number.

But here we have an "Organization" keeping tabs on MINUTES!!!! Literally! (Remember the 15 minutes arrangement for old folks).

There's Hours, Literature, Visits, Irregulars, Inactives, Pioneers, Quotas, Averages, Those under Average, and those Over Average, and WHOLE SYSTEM designed to control and keep a (very close) eye on people. As Gary pointed "Business Behavior"; may I add, a leftover form KNORR's obsession with Data as Statistics.

And take it from me (Serving Elder, ex-CO): 80% of publishers just make up a figure at the moment of filling their reports. an probably half of those don't even try to be accurate, they just throw a figure low enough to be believable, yet high enough to keep elders out of their hair.

Heaven

Gary... I'd be interested in seeing that list as well!

I personally haven't found any Scriptural support for it. I did recently asked my MS father:

"Why do you report your FS time and what makes up that time?" He hesitated for a bit so I asked in a different fashion:

"Like, for example, is travel time included in the definition of service hours or is it just the actual time engaged handing the magazine at the door and speaking to the person?"

There was a silence for a while and then he said "Well, I, yes, I do include my travel time." (This tells me that when he comes to see me and drops off magazines, he codes at least 4 hours! )

I then told him of the story I read here about the one JW family that puts a Watchtower mag. on their dashboard while driving around on vacation and counts their entire vacation as service time. He had no response to that.

Is there a definition of what constitutes the service hours? Because my father, who has been dedicated for over 20 years, does not know.

I believe Ray Franz also addresses this in his book "In Search Of Christian Freedom".

Doubting Bro

Having been the secretary and an elder for several years, I began to realize why time was collected. It had nothing to do with scriptures. Notice these:

Acts 1:15 (NWT) - 15 Now during these days Peter rose up in the midst of the brothers and said (the crowd of persons was all together about one hundred and twenty):

Acts 2:41 (NWT) - 41 Therefore those who embraced his word heartily were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added. 42 And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to sharing [with one another], to taking of meals and to prayers.

The WTS often points to Acts 1:15 as the beginning of the Christian Congregation since that's when Holy Spirit was poured out on Jesus disciples. If accurate statistics were that important, why didn't someone take an accurate count. A group of 120 isn't that large. Even if no one thought it was important at the time, certainly the accurate number would have come to the Bible writer under insipration if it was vital. Point is, it didn't really matter if there were 118 or 122. The about 120 number is giving the reader the general impression of how many people were there which is really all that is necessary.

So, the reason time is collected is so that local elders can closely monitor peoples activity in the literature distribution work. Everything a JW does is measured by what's on that time card. When discussing who should be appointed as an elder or ms, the number one item of discussion (in my experience) is the brother's time. If married, the wife also has to be turning in close to 10 hours unless there is a major health problem. Although the scriptures in Tim & Titus are in theory used to determine if a man is spiritually qualified, if he's averaging 8.5 hours in FS, it wouldn't matter if he fit every description of those scriptures, he would still not be used. In meetings reviewing a brother's qualifications, I would (as secretary) sit there with the box the time cards were kept in and pull names as they were mentioned. If their hours were less than 10 on average, the discussion would be over very quickly. All this despite there being no specific mention in the qualifications for servants about a person doing evangelizing work as a requirement.

Also, you can't manage what you don't measure. As Gary & WC said, it's business behavior not religious. The WTS is afraid that if they drop the reporting requirement, people wouldn't go door to door. It's really that simple.

sir82

Aren't there some countries where the WTS has to regularly justify its status as a tax-exempt "charity"?

I recall reading somewhere that the WTS uses the "hours reported" as proof of their volunteer work - "look, in this country last year, our X thousand volunteers donated Y million hours of community service and education work".

Of course "community service" is a euphemism for "knocking on doors of empty houses" and "education" stands for "studying our WT produced publications"- but to the charity commission or whoever certfies tax-exempt status, that is all the detail they require. The WTS has a paper trail for the actual "hours spent" and that satisfies the auditors.

isaacaustin

Reniaa said: If they do something clearly against Gods ways and principles they have to account for it as moses did when he eventually sinned in taking Gods actions as his own while he was rebuked he wasn't cast off for it. Jesus our King allows for us to do everyday ruling ourselves till he comes but he still asks for us to make sure we fight the serious sins.

My reply: The WT leaders are disqulaified from the role Moses held by the words of Moses at Deut regarding flase prophets. Your last sentence here is correct...and refutes your contrdictory beleif that the GB is God's channel.

AllTimeJeff

Don't worry about those who defend counting time. Remember, anyone who defends the reporting of FS time is likely counting their time.

isaacaustin

LOL so true. Hi Reniaa!

isaacaustin

Reniaa said:

We are not jews and need everything spelled out! as christians there is flexibility of having the ability to apply principle

my reply: good point

as well as make the directives work it is part of being assigned leaders.

my reply: then you enter the WT trash and ruin what was off to an auspicious beginning.

Paul refutes you:

“’For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from the least one to the greatest one of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’”

AllTimeJeff

FS time is something that Knorr believed would keep an accurate track of a persons spiritual activity. It is another way to monitor and keep tabs on the flock.

They might try to stop highlighting hours (as they seem to have lately with the Kingdom Ministry report), but they will still be tracked internally, and thats all that matters.... Big brother, making sure you are living up to the vow you made to god.

Counting Time: Is it Scriptural?

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