As Christians, do you feel you can forgive anything and everything?

ThomasCovenant

Hi

I was watching a program last night about Peter Sutcliffe aka The Yorkshire Ripper.

As some here may know, there are rumours that he may have some links with Jehovah's Witnesses via prison. If it was true, it seems appalling to me that he could be viewed as my spiritual brother (if both he and I were JW's).

However, wouldn't the 'christian' attitude, to which many billions of Earth's fellow passengers aspire to follow, be ''how wonderful that he has repented'' ?

What if I was a Southern Baptist and he became one? Or a Pentecostal and he became one? Or if I was a Catholic and he became one?

Some may also remember the Michael Porter case here in the UK. An elder from Clevedon who whilst shepherding the flock was also abusing some of the smaller sheep. I remember the UK press having a go at his sentence i.e. a community rehabilitation order. Some here on this forum also were quite angry. I rang London Beth Hell to ask a few questions re the Holy Spit and his appointment as an elder.

It seems Mr Porter is still a JW in London and many of us would probably not be too happy having him in our congregation.

However, and back to my question which I am addressing to those who view themselves as followers of Mr J Christ, surely forgiveness is a wonderful thing and any church would welcome people like Sutcliffe and Porter, and Hitler while we are at it, as long as they were repentant. After all isn't that what Jesus would do?

I remember Myra Hindley being reported as saying she was rehabiltated and should be released.

Personally, if I had committed those crimes but now felt totally rehabiltated and sorry for the bad I had done I would say ''Yes I am a new sorry, non dangerous person who should NEVER be let out of prison.''

Yes I really do think it's great when people see the error of their ways and turn around and maybe change their spots. However I would find it hard to forgive them.

I take the attitude; ' It's marvellous that you have repented but unfortunately this is a great shame and tragedy not only for your victims but also for you. If you truly are sorry you would not be asking to be released''

Am I getting the Christian message of forgiveness all wrong?

Thanks

Thomas Covenant

BluesBrother

I always maintained that forgiveness of sins can only come from God...He can decide whether a person is truly repentant or fooling us, and maybe themselves as well.

As an individual, I just deal with people. My point is that you have to be aware of peoples weaknesses . Only a fool trusts a person with a past history like those quoted in the post If I had been personally wronged (perhaps on a lesser matter) then I may decide to move forward and not harbour a grudge that is negative for me, but "God is our judge", I would leave it to Him.

yknot

Does the Bible allow for both forgiveness and consequence of one's own actions?...... Yes.

Is there a difference between forgiveness and trust?.... yes.

Forgiveness is given and trust is earned.

Thomas how do you feel about Karla Faye Tucker?

ThomasCovenant

Thanks for the replies.

Blues Brother- If a person believes in a god of forgiveness then yes it's easier to leave it to that god to do the forgiving. But what about the followers? Would they forgive Michael Porter , for example, if he joined their congregation?

yknot- I'm afraid I've never heard of K F Tucker but just looked it up on wiki. I agree a marvellous case, it appears, of someone changing for the better. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Getting back to the JW's and the Michael Porter and possible Yorkshire Ripper cases it would seem to me that christians couldn't have any complaints with the fact that it appears local JW's are willing to accept him back into their faith as that is the 'christian' thing to do.

As an atheist I marvel at religious peoples' ability to forgive people for committing terrible crimes because it is recorded that their deity requires it.

Can we condemn the JW's for taking him back? I don't think so. Not unless we condemn the act of religiously backed forgiveness.

Thomas Covenant

WTWizard

If I remember my Bible reading correctly, Jesus forgave lots of different sins. He was extremely lenient with things like fornication, not keeping the letter of the Law, and even reviling Jesus. What Jesus had very little tolerance for was people that wanted everything everyone else did to be what they were told to do.

And Jesus would not forgive people that continually imposed their own rules on everyone else.

no more kool aid

I agree with Blues Brother forgiveness can only really come from God. If someone has personally done me wrong like cheated, gossiped betrayed in some way, I try really hard to forgive them. That does not mean I would confide in them ever again or do bussiness with them. I may even distance myself a bit as self protection. However, if someone abused my child, no forgiveness from me. That would have to be between him and his maker.

yknot

I have had criminals in KHs I have attended.......petty theft and 3 registered sex offenders.

I have known several pastors who do jail-house ministries too for other denominations.

In Xianity it is all about temperance of both caution and encouragement of spiritual growth if the convict is in the congregation. No Xian will deny that through Christ all are capable of rehabilitation if they choose to become a new spirit.

The thing is that rehabilitation doesn't mean things are all better but that the person is on a path that lessens the chances of repeat offending. Some times the 'debt to society' is lifelong even after time served.

I think a person who has committed such heinous crimes (and actually have been released back into public life!) shows maturity when they understand the difference between divine forgiveness and society's desire to mark them for life. They in "this system of things" have earned suched markings and the sentences they pronounced on their victims is lifelong so their lifelong marking is just and fair.... this is where humility manifests and remains.

As to Peter directly..... I haven't read his letters but if they do in fact dismiss his crimes entirely then this doesn't much manifest a "Christ like spirit". I think however any prison minister would continue ministering to him in hope of his spiritual maturity.

Michael- First and foremost he should be in prison! This is a very hard situation, had the judge locked him up, he would be DFd and left to only Elders. But in the congregation so soon.....I guess in the end it will be up to the local elders. Such a failure of the justice system! When we had a pedophile move in one set of Elders tried to hide his status as an offender (not even telling the BS conductor of the KH BS....where most of the children attended!)..... But once it was made known the younger Elders with children, more or less ran him off...... I am a bit conflicted since the man was very humble, kept to himself, didn't use the public restrooms, sat in the back and seemed in a sense to be taking both his DFing and status as a man who knew he was marked guilty for life..... I guess in the end it is all about the criminals behavior. Crimes like that.... he should know he will be a leper until his last dying breath in society's eyes... and recusing himself appropriately.

It will be interesting to see the Borg's take on pedophiles after Ted is gone.......

mouthy

Does any one remember James ALLridge.? a Jehovahs witness that killed a store attendent.
He went to prison, realized how bad it was ......became a Christian, was a MARVOULOUS artist.
He was executed. I corresponded with him for a few years .All I can say ! I believe God looks at our hearts NOt our religion. I am hoping one day to meet James

Yes!! it is only a hope I cant see.!!! But who hopes for what they see?
And do I forgive.?. I try,!but you see I am not perfect, .It sometimes takes me awhile to forgive
usally I feel lousy when I dont ,so for my OWN Feeling I HAVE to forgive ,,,,Yes selfish to the core

Narkissos

This must be old news for some of you but it was recently posted on a French forum, in connection with 'the American myth of rehabilitation through religious conversion': http://www.seattlepi.com/local/282086_thompson22.html

This reminds me of a Talmudic discussion referred to by Jewish-French philosopher Emmanuel Lévinas. As often the discussion turned around what we might call a polysemic wordplay, specifically a Hebrew expression which can be rendered literally as "to lift the face" and can mean, depending on the context, either showing partiality or favoritism toward sb (which is "bad" and God doesn't do according to the Torah), or "showing favour" to sb (oppressed, afflicted) in a positive sense of relief. As polysemy doesn't work in rabbinical rules, the question was, how is it that God both doesn't "lift the face" and does "lift the face"? The answer was, only after judgement does God "lift the face"...

yknot

Well the idea persists because of people changing their choices of action on the basis of accepting Christ and actively choosing to live their lives following Christ.

The man who penned "Amazing Grace" was a rapist....before turning his life over to Jesus.

As Christians, do you feel you can forgive anything and everything?

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