Would you turn in your neighbour if he was a polygamist?

by sammielee24 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    There are large numbers of Muslims all over the world - I wonder what the laws regarding the marriages are in other countries and what would you do if you suspected your neighbour was one? sammieswife.

    Polygamy UK: This special Mail investigation reveals how thousands of men are milking the benefits system to support several wives

    By Sue Reid
    Last updated at 10:03 PM on 24th February 2009

    He cut a smart figure in his grey suit and crisply ironed shirt. The 6ft tall Somalian bowed to the judge, calling him 'Sir', before begging for his wife, Fatima, and their teenage son to be allowed to stay in Britain. Fatima, with a black khimar veil covering her hair and shoulders, sat quietly next to her husband.

    In her late 30s and wearing open sandals, she lowered her dark eyes as the details of the unconventional life she and her husband, Abdi, led in the West London suburb of Shepherd's Bush unfolded at a busy immigration court.

    Multiple marriages in Britain were first declared illegal in 1604

    The judge listened in silence. Perhaps he knew from past experience what was coming next. Abdi went on to reveal that Fatima was not his only wife.

    Indeed, he was a self-confessed bigamist who had a second, much younger wife and a 13-year-old daughter by her. They both lived nearby.

    'I visit them regularly,' said Abdi, 51, who arrived in Britain in the 1990s and works in an old people's home. 'I have done nothing wrong. In Somalia, it is normal to have two wives - even three or four. Fatima is still my wife and she should not be deported.'

    He was unable to produce wedding certificates or valid official documents to prove where, or when, he had married both women, therefore raising questions over the validity of the unions, under either Somali or British law.

    Yet his story, unravelling at an ordinary weekday hearing at Taylor House, an asylum appeals' centre in North London, is just one example of the growing phenomenon of multiple marriage in Britain.

    Officially, such unions are punishable by up to seven years in prison. They were first declared illegal in England and Wales in 1604, when the Parliament of James I took action to restrain 'evil persons' marrying more than one wife. Parliament ruled that anyone found guilty of the crime would be sentenced to death.

    In the four centuries since, bigamy (having two wives) and polygamy (more than two) has been frowned on by the state, the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

    Yet it is clear that officialdom is turning a blind eye to such marriages.

    A recent review by four Government departments - the Treasury, the Work and Pensions Department, the Inland Revenue and the Home Office - has concluded that 1,000 men in the United Kingdom are now polygamists, although some say the figure is higher.

    Baroness Warsi has warned that politicians have failed to tackle the problem of polygamy because of 'cultural sensitivity'

    What is more, the review found, a Muslim man can claim state support of more than £10,000 a year to keep his wives, if the wedding took place in one of those countries where polygamy is commonplace, such as Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia and across huge tracts of Africa.

    For example, a man can receive &£92.80 a week in income support for wife number one, and a further £33.65p for each of his subsequent spouses.

    Therefore, if he has four wives - the maximum permitted under Islamic teachings - he can claim nearly £800 a month from the British taxpayer.

    Controversially, a polygamist is also entitled to more generous housing benefits and bigger council houses to reflect the large size of his family. He is also able to claim £1,000 a year in child benefit for each of his growing brood.

    The Government insists that polygamy has declined in Britain since the 1988 Immigration Act, which made it harder for men to bring second, third or fourth wives to the UK.

    However, it's little wonder that critics claim our generosity simply encourages more Muslim men to keep several spouses. Supporters of polygamy claim the Koran states unequivocally that a Muslim man can marry up to four women so long as he treats them equally.

    But the Taxpayers' Alliance, a lobby group, has complained: 'Polygamy is not officially condoned here, so why should British taxpayers have to pay for extra benefits for men to have two, three or four wives?'

    Last week, Baroness Warsi, a Tory spokesperson for community cohesion who is British-born of Pakistani parents, waded into the argument, warning that politicians have failed to tackle the problem of polygamy because of 'cultural sensitivity'.

    The respected Muslim peer told the BBC: 'We've just avoided either discussing or dealing with the matter head on.'

    Baroness Warsi, a Muslim herself, urged the Government to bring in laws demanding the official registration of 'Nikah' or religious Islamic marriage ceremonies, which often take place secretly in private houses with 'an imam and a couple of witnesses there' - and which are used to get round our marriage laws.

    So how do the polygamists get away with it here? Firstly, it needs to be understood that the generous benefits system allows any man and the partner he lives with to claim benefits together - even if the woman is not officially registered as his wife.

    If they do marry, to avoid breaking Britain's bigamy laws, such men often engage in a ceremony with their second or third wife in a Nikah secretly in their own homes and never register the union officially in this country.

    Another technique is for the man to divorce his first wife under British law while continuing to live with her as his spouse under Islamic law. He then gets a visa for a new wife to enter the country and can legally marry her here.

    Moreover, our politically correct immigration rules state that if a husband has divorced his first wife under British law - and even if that divorce is actually suspected to be part of a plan to set up a polygamous household - a second wife from abroad must be allowed to come and live here.

    During this investigation, I spoke to health workers and benefits officers who have seen at first-hand the scale of polygamy in Britain.

    An NHS district nurse working in Tower Hamlets, East London, explained that it was now commonplace. He said he knew of a Bangladeshi-born male patient with two wives and 13 children aged between three months and 15 years.

    'The women have council flats, each paid for by the local authority. The elderly husband collects benefits for both women, who are in their 30s. The wives speak very little English, but they are in and out of each other's flats and are friends.

    'On more than one occasion when I have been called to the flats to give treatment to the old man, I have heard them talking in the kitchen and even taking each other's children to the park.'

    The male nurse said this family set-up was not unusual. 'I know of others that comprise of one husband, a number of wives and numerous children.

    'It is not difficult to conclude that if there were no state benefits, a man could not afford to live like this, especially here in London.

    'The system is at fault. The men want more wives for their sexual pleasure, but also because it is lucrative.'

    Yet there is another issue to be raised. Are the Government figures of around 1,000 foreign men living polygamously a gross underestimate?

    Recently, a senior imam in Finchley, North London, said there are at least 4,000 men involved in such marriages.

    Meanwhile, to show just how far some men have stretched the teaching of the Koran, another senior Islamist, Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, has revealed a case of a man living here with five wives.

    But what, indeed, of the wives living in polygamous marriages themselves?

    In an age of supposed sexual equality, how can they accept what many will feel is the degradation that goes hand in hand with polygamy?

    Not surprisingly, few dare to speak out publicly for fear that they will be ostracised by their families.

    But one 34-year-old mother who lives in the Bangladeshi community of East London rang the Mail because she said she wants to reveal the truth of what is happening.

    Sitting in her kitchen in Newham, she reeled off a list of male relatives and friends who have two or three wives.

    What is more, the woman - who does not want to be named for fear of attacks on her and her family - said that polygamy is tacitly encouraged by our benefits system, where few questions are asked or checks made.

    The woman, whom we will call Kaela, arrived in Britain with her mother and younger brother when she was 11.

    They were following her father, who had come to Britain from a poor province called Sylhet, seeking work in the food factories of West London.

    Kaela learned English, went to a local comprehensive and, at 19, fell in love with a Bangladeshi-born boy who had also arrived in this country as a youngster.

    They married, set up home in a small council flat and soon had two children. Kaela worked hard for her family. With a clutch of GCSEs, she became an adviser to the Bangladeshi community on issues such as welfare, housing and education. She now works as a parttime civil servant.

    Yet, two years ago, her husband suddenly disappeared back to Bangladesh and, in an Islamic Nikah ceremony, married a 19-year-old second wife who has since given birth to his son.

    'My husband has a British passport and plans to come back into this country with his two-year-old boy and his new wife.

    'He has not given me a penny. He knows that the State will provide for us. He has told me to tell the authorities I have been deserted and claim income support, housing benefit and council tax.'

    But what of his second wife? Kaela suspects the shy teenager without any English will be brought into Britain on a tourist visa, pretending to be her own son's nanny.

    'I have seen it happen before,' Kaela explains. 'I know of one man living in East London who has two wives here, each with a flat, and a third wife in Bangladesh. Between the wives, there are five children under 13, all living in this country.

    'The first two women look after the third wife's child. So who pays to keep this enormous family? The State, of course.

    'I have an uncle who lives near Heathrow who has two wives. They are all together in a big five-bedroom house, with off-street parking. It is a council flat and the rent is paid from housing benefits because he does not work.

    'The first wife, who is 60, claims pension credit and carer's allowance to look after his old mother, whom he has brought here as a dependent from Bangladesh.

    'His much younger second wife claims income support for herself and child benefits for their three children of school age. We are talking about hundreds of pounds a week to keep this family going.'

    Kaela says there are myriad tricks used to bring second wives into Britain. Apart from the 'nanny ruse', new female partners enter the country using tourist visas, student visas or work permits. They simply overstay the visas, which are normally for six months, and stay in Britain, often hiding away in their husband's home.

    But women suffer as a result of polygamy, says Kaela. 'The first wives get depressed because they are so ashamed of their husband taking a second or third wife.

    'Many wives have been here for years, but have never been allowed to learn English or even go out of the house alone. They have no one to turn to for help.'

    No one knows such anguish better than Sameera, a well-spoken, middle-aged woman living in one of our multi-cultural cities, whose 55-year-old husband found a second wife after 30 years of marriage.

    He went on holiday to his homeland of Pakistan where, without Sameera's knowledge or consent, he married a 26-year-old cousin.

    'I fainted when I heard,' says Sameera. 'The fact that he's married a girl young enough to be his daughter has upset me so much.

    'I cried. I felt like my mind was exploding. The ground had just fallen from me. Why did he do it? It shouldn't happen.'

    Astonishingly, though, Sameera has been forced to welcome the new wife into her house.

    The alternative, she says, would be the breakdown of her relationship with her husband and, possibly, the loss of her home. In other words, she might be thrown on to the streets.

    Yet despite such emotional cruelty, there are those who say polygamy should be legal in multicultural Britain. A leading Muslim academic at Cambridge University has claimed that men are biologically designed to desire more than one woman and that, therefore, polygamy should be legalised.

    Meanwhile, a primary school teacher in Birmingham recently spoke publicly about his contented life with two wives and six children, all living in the same house.

    Even a prominent female member of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain - set up in 1992 to debate Islamic issues - has claimed that she knows of many very happy polygamous marriages in Britain.

    'I am aware that this practice is taking place, and there are couples who are quite satisfied with their relationship, and they would like it to carry on and be protected by law,' she proclaimed.

    Back at the immigration appeals centre at Taylor House, which heard the case of Somali-born polygamist Abdi, a Home Office lawyer took me aside and whispered: 'This man's not the only husband doing this.

    'Last week, there was one man who was born in Pakistan and arrived to settle here only four years ago. He brought in one wife legally. They arrived as asylum seekers. The next wife came in on a student's visa. The third pretended to be visiting relatives in Southwark, South London. She had a sixmonth tourist visa but overstayed and was about to be deported.

    'She ended up here, begging to remain in Britain with her husband.'

    As for Abdi, I spoke to his son after the case adjourned as he waited for a bus with his mother, Fatima, while his father went back to work. The polite, intelligent-teenager is studying at college and hopes to become an engineer.

    He came to Britain with his mother (who speaks only a few words of English) as asylum seekers from Somalia several years after Abdi had made the journey alone seeking a job, money and a better future.

    'I knew my father had a second wife,' the teenager said with a friendly smile. 'That is not unusual in Somalia. I want to stay in Britain, and so does my mother. Our lives should not be shattered because of this.'

    But British taxpayers footing the bill may beg to disagree.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    None of my business. I'm all for milking the system these days. Playing by the rules is for suckahs.

    BTS

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    I would turn in my one neighbor for jaywalking. He drives his car with the bass thumping at 3 am, rattling the windows in my house.

    My only consolation is that he will likely be deaf in about a decade. Too bad I won't be there to see it.

    At least I have a nice 6 ft tall, 125 foot long stockade fence now... He has to go around to threaten me now....so far so good. And now I don't have to look at him and his crap.

    Not that calling the cops does any good for any reason. I will take matters into my own hand if the neighbor ever tries anything else. Tired of cowering in fear.

    Snakes (of the "normally a nice guy" Sheep Class)

    Ps...in all seriousness, I dont care what the neighbors do as long as they dont attract riff raff into the neighborhood (you know, the ones with the loud stereos, throwing their garbage in my yard, fighting in the street). Its becoming a ghetto now as it is.... polygamy? That would be at the very bottom of my cares.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    I am getting really sick of this hate-mongering propaganda.

    I am getting emails and crap like this all the time....blaming foreigners and immigrants for sucking the welfare system dry and trying to blame all the economic woes on them.

    Most of these things are made -up or are staged to sway the opinion of the populus and incite hatred, blame and prejudice.

    This is a prime example of media leading the people.

    If my neighbor were a polygamist, why should I butt my nose in their business and "tattle" to some agency that their morals are different from mine?

    So what? Live and let live and just be kind to one another. Who am I to say my way is the only way and that they should conform to what I think?

    As far as these people "bilking the system and taking our tax dollars" I think that is a blatant lie.

    Want to know about where your tax dollars go? Look to the federal gov. and their frivilous spending.

    Looks to me like all this propaganda is being contrived and used as not only scapegoat for gov spending, but also to recruit people to an agenda of tattling and spying for a future implementation.

    Already we have a program of snitches in this country.

    They are called the Infra-gard.

    This is the same way that Hitler's SS began.

    First it started with negative publicity about a "certain people", it built to a frenzy of hatred, and then people were recruited to "spy and out" these people the government wanted to punish.

    Don't think it won't happen here. They are planting the seeds for it with propaganda like this.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    I would if they were abusing the system or any women. I just paid my taxes. I don't like paying taxes, but I do. Nuff said.

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    BTS: "None of my business. I'm all for milking the system these days. Playing by the rules is for suckahs."

    I'm glad you feel that way, BTS, because you are paying taxes to support polygamy in the United States, as practiced by the church of Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Here's an excerpt from Jon Krakauer's book on polygamy in the U.S., "Under the Banner of Heaven."

    "Polygamy is illegal in both Utah and Arizona. To avoid prosecution, typically men in Colorado City [located in Arizona, and a FLDS stronghold], will legally marry only the first of their wives; subsequent wives, although 'spiritually married' to their husband by 'Uncle Rulon' [Rulon T. Jeffs, related to the notorious Warren Jeffs], thus remain single mothers in the eyes of the state. This has the added benefit of allowing the enormous families in town to qualify for welfare and other forms of public assistance. Despite the fact that Uncle Rulon and his followers regard the governments of Arizona, Utah, and the United States as Satanic forces out to destroy the UEP [United Effort Plan, a set of rules formulated by Uncle Rulon], their polygamous community receives more than $6 million a year in public funds."

    And that's just one community. Here's another.....

    "Fifty-four-year-old Tom Green is a ... man ... with 32 children and 5 wives..... Investigators from the Utah attorney general's office have documented that between 1989 and 1999, Tom Green and his dependents received more than $647,000 in state and federal assistance, including $203,000 in food stamps and nearly $300,000 in medical and dental expenses. These same investigators estimate that had they been granted complete access to pertinent goverment files as far back as 1985, when Green began his polygamous lifestyle, they would have been able to show that Green received well over $1 million in welfare."

    Would I turn in my neighbor if he was a polygamist? Without a moment's hesitation.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    If they are not creating any problems for me, I wouldn't even bother. It doesn't matter if someone has multiple wives or multiple husbands, is gay, or even has several gay "husbands" or "wives". They are not doing anything to force me into it--as long as that remains the case, I have no reason to turn them in.

    Ditto for selling drugs. If someone is selling drugs around me, and they are not bothering me or threatening anyone, I don't see the problem. I would only turn them in if they were creating havoc and threatening other people or creating too much noise and ruining the area with their garbage. And it would be for the noise and other problems--if all those victimless-crime laws were stricken, it would be that much better without the waste of resources spent enforcing stupid laws.

  • jws
    jws

    "Fifty-four-year-old Tom Green is a ... man ... with 32 children and 5 wives..... Investigators from the Utah attorney general's office have documented that between 1989 and 1999, Tom Green and his dependents received more than $647,000 in state and federal assistance, including $203,000 in food stamps and nearly $300,000 in medical and dental expenses. These same investigators estimate that had they been granted complete access to pertinent goverment files as far back as 1985, when Green began his polygamous lifestyle, they would have been able to show that Green received well over $1 million in welfare."

    That's 11 years (beginning of '89 to end of '99). Each of the 4 extra wives had an average of $14,700 per year. With 32 children for 5 wives, each wive had an average of over 6 children. $14,700 for a woman and her 6 children every year seems like a pitiful little towards the expenses incurred. That's like a single parent supporting 6 children on a $7/hour job.

    Take the polygamist out of the picture and throw him in jail and the wives end up on welfare anyway, including the one that was probably legal and not collecting welfare up to this point. Throw the wives in jail too and the state becomes fully responsible for all of the expenses of the 32 children until they are placed in the care of others, who, in turn, may file for some sort of state assistance to help them raise the children. And meanwhile, we're paying for the care of whoever goes to jail in some sort of penitentury.

    I don't really see punishing the polygamist as saving money, which is the hot-button issue being used to sway your emotions. In fact, it probably will cost the taxpayers more money to punish him. And the children suffer from breaking apart their family. Strange as that family unit may be to us, it's still family to them.

    As long as he's not hurting anybody (and the monetary aspects are debatable), why bother him? Besides, if I turned him in, I'd never hear any stories of what it's like to have a harem. Does he ever have 7-somes?

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    jws: "As long as he's not hurting anybody (and the monetary aspects are debatable), why bother him? Besides, if I turned him in, I'd never hear any stories of what it's like to have a harem. Does he ever have 7-somes?"

    You're right, jws, that it's very difficult to prosecute polygamists because families get ripped apart. You say that as long as the polygamist is not hurting anybody, why bother him? Yet to ignore them is also counterproductive. Polygamists tend to form closed groups of "families" and thus make up their own rules to live by -- rules that allow children to be abused and brainwashed:

    "Juab County attorney David O. Leavitt saw Tom Green [mentioned in my previous post] bragging on national television that he had married all of his current wives when they were mere girls. One of them was only thirteen when he, at age thirty-seven, got her pregnant. According to Utah statue, when an adult male has sex with a thirteen-year-old child, a first-degree felony has been committed. 'Tom Green at first blush appeared to be someone that no one should bother,' Leavitt explained to reporter Paulene Arrillaga of the Associated Press in November 2000. 'But this is a man who has taken thirteen- and fourten-year-old children, deprived them of any education, married them, impregnanted them, required the state to pay the bill, and has raped a thirteen-year-old girl." (Jon Krakauer, "Under the Banner of Heaven")

    Polygamy is inherently abusive to women and children. Incest and rape are justified in the FLDS as a doctrine coming from God. Would you stand by and let a young girl be sexually abused in a polygamous "marriage." I wouldn't. It turns my stomach to see what these men are capable of doing, and all in the name of "God."

  • jws
    jws

    You're right. Multiple wives is one thing (as long as wives were willing), but abuse (physically, sexually, or even mentally) is another matter. And the authorities need to be notified for any physical or sexual abuse. Mental abuse, as far as I know, isn't a crime. It's a matter for divorce lawyers.

    But like the JWs, there are pedophiles and religious psychos and there are more normal people who are moderate and who wouldn't dream of abusing or hurting others. I don't know much about polygamists. I know there are some bad examples in the news. But I'm not certain whether they are the norm or not.

    There are unmarried love triangles who live together and do just fine. So I'm not about to condemn them just for having multiple partners.

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