Do you believe in predestination?

by jetery 31 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  It's clearly in the bible so I believe it :)

  Romans 8: 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, [ a ] who [ b ] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

  Ephesians 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he [c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he [d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

  11 In him we were also chosen, [e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

  As Paul says, it is a mystery so the key is not to get too hung up on it!

  No wonder the WT doesn't believe it, they want to keep you enslaved to a never ending stream of good "works" without faith in the true Jesus.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Leolaia

  The viewpoint in Revelation is closer to foreknowledge but the writer of 1QH has a full notion of predestination that excludes personal choice: "You determined the fruit of their lips before they came about," "You have determined the inclination of his spirit and all his deeds before you created him," "The wicked you created for the time of your wrath and from the womb you set them apart for the day of slaughter," "You have apportioned their deeds in all generations and the regulation at its predetermined times to rule over them generation after generation," "In the wisdom of your knowledge you have determined their destiny before they came to exist," etc. etc.

  Of course, a God that allows freedom of choice and freewill may be more agreeable with modern concepts of individuality and personal merit.
• 

  Chalam

  Does God chose us or do we chose him? The best answer is that both are true!

  Plenty of reading here but don't beat yourself up over the issue

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

  Far better to get to grips with the real issues first, who really is Jesus, why did he die, why is he coming back etc.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Kiera

  The promises of Paul to the Romans, actually made or suggested and possibly believed (?) by the Romans have been a long time comming. They are as Monty Python would say, " Dead as a parrot", both the promises and the Romans.

  It does not matter what you do or what you believe, it is what HAPPENS that counts.
• 

  Kiera

  If predestination IS a tenet of Christianity, then why is there an obsession amongst various Christian beliefs who are constantly on the lookout for signs of the end, Christs presence etc ? End result - If it is preordained, then it will happen.

  If predestination is NOT a tenet of Christian belief, then why is there an obsession amongst various Christian beliefs who are constantly on the look out for signs of the end, Christs presence etc ? End result - If it is not preordained, why look for a sign that it is happening (following a prophecy - preordination) ?
• 

  Warlock

  If you actually believe in predestination, then I'll assume that you have no fear.

  Warlock
• 

  Kiera

  If I knew what was in store for me at work on most days of the week, I would not leave my bed or the house. How does that fit in with the predestination / free will theorists ?
• 

  Chalam

  In short, do we choose God or does he choose us is like a coin. One side says heads, the other tails. They appear to be be opposite and not compatible. However, it just depends on your viewpoint. God sees all sides of the coin at once (so to speak), he exists outside of time having created it in eternity. The only way to understand God fully is to know everything, just like God does.

  Like I said, things like this can mess with our finite heads so save on the stress and just have faith as a child :)

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Kiera

  Chalam,

  Before you began the misdirection through the introduction of side issues, the issue was clear, either we humans have choices (free will) or we have no real choices (predestination).

  You seem to have a leg each side of the line with your opinion.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Kiera,

  Yes you read my posts right, I agree with both viewpoints, even though they would seem to be opposed to each other.

  If you studied Physics at school they used to say things like 'is light a particle or is it a wave?' Then they would go through the views that it was one or the other and discuss it. Then afterwards they would tell you it is both and one could either think of it as one or the other, depending on the application. Both are true, both are quite different and both depend on your viewpoint.

  Here is another, what colour is light Look at a torch and it looks white. However, send it through a prism and light is actually all kinds of colours, some you can't even see! So different answers but both are equally true, even though they seem to disagree.

  All the best,

  Stephen