I haven't posted in a while during an interesting period in my life.
For a long time I posted here and often filled the role as a partial mormon apologist (though more to bring balance to 'the force' than anything else - I was never after converts!) and this following final goodbye will explain all:
For many years now I've been forcing myself to confront the awful possibility that my own faith is built on dreams and lies. I reached a turning point about three years ago when I decided that my belief (testimony in LDS parlance) was worth only what it had cost me and as a born in member that wasn't very much. To this end I decided that truth should be true from every angle, should stand under any challenges and should invite examination - I figured that the least I could offer God on my alter of self exploration was the risk of finding it was untrue. Facing the possibility that your core beliefs could be untrue is soul shaking (well it was for me!) and yet it opens up otherwise locked doors of inquiry and knowledge. I have definitely had very spiritual experiences (I've tried to verbalise one or two here) but I wanted to know if it was possible to have emotional /spiritual / psychological responses from more basic organic causes than some supernatural power so I read:
A Mind Of Its Own - Cordelia Fine
Inevitable Illusions - Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini
Blink - Malcolm Gladwell
Now that I could explain my real experiences from a scientific viewpoint I could open my mind to the next stage - was the bible accurate and so I read:
Misquoting Jesus - Bart D Ehrman
Lost Scriptures - Bart D Ehrman
Lost Christianities - Bart D Ehrman
When Jesus Became God - Richard E Rubenstein
With the bible exposed and certainly the lack of originals and proven copyist mistakes / interpolations and politically motivated dogma changes I pretty much realised that Christianity had very little basis on historical reality or genuine first hand accounts - ergo fairly useless for anything other than very general ideas. Then I wanted to confirm that science did in fact have some answers rather than mere guesses so I read:
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
The Goldilocks Enigma - Paul Davies
The Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
The Stuff of Thought - Steven Pinker
Critical Mass - Phillip Ball
Miscellaneous websites regarding evolution
With a basic grasp on at least the concept that the universe is very very complex and has all the hallmarks of ordered but undesigned (contentious I agree) direction I now felt a lot more comfortable with my basic premises that the world is not some black and white dichotomy of true and false choices but is more akin to a glorious dazzling ephemeral rainbow which contains no white or black. I then faced my final hurdle - an honest appraisal of my own historical faith. So I read plenty of websites (though this time under my new rule - anything anti may well be true.) I am still reading some specifically LDS books (Rough Stone Rolling and Early Mormonism and the Magic worldview.) By now I was fully aware that the LDS faith and indeed all christianity and by extension all religion is not based upon actual truth but upon metaphors for knowledge that is currently untouchable by science (especially regarding what happens - if anything - after death.)
Emotionally this time has been a roller coaster - I went through the sick in the stomach phase a long long time ago, I then went through the rigid fear and doubt phase (and I sometimes still get waves of it) in case I made a mistake and it was all right and I'm off to 'hell', I went through the anger phase more recently and now I'm in the enjoying my religion phase (I'll explain in a few lines.) In short I went through the same feelings as though my lover had betrayed me - the realisation that you gave your all and yet all along the object of your love wasn't who you thought they were. The brainwashing and inculcation of LDS dogma is deeply rooted and I've made peace with the knowledge that I'll never ever fully remove it. I still have an internal chuckle when I catch myself judging a situation through LDS goggles and I mentally chide myself as part of my efforts to clear my mind to make my own unencumbered choices.
So here I am now - I'm not bitter ( I think this is perhaps the greatest part being here helped me with - so thanks!) just far less judgmental about everything and everyone now. So the church lied to me and stiffed me out of wads of wonga, on the flip side, I love my friends, I met my wife, I had (and still have) great fun socially , I missed out on drugs, drunkeness and smoking (not everyone will agree its a good thing but I'm quite pleased with it) and I still get a great deal of spiritual/mental fulfillment now that I've shed the need to believe in authorisation to think from some unseen, arbitrary entity. Some things in my faith I hate (anti-gay, historical racism and female suppression) but in now I know its a fraud I can suck what good I want out of it and maybe act as a force for change. If the bishop wants to talk to me about my faith I'm now empowered to say no ta, when someone wants to mooch off me I can say hop it but when I see a real need that I want to help out in I get a place to do it. I can clear my mind, correlate my diary and enjoy colouring pictures with my family during onerous meetings and all in all take only what I want and give what I want. It's great. It's guilt free religion at last.
This has been hard to write as I'm a proud son of a gun and those who tussled with me over time will inevitably wish to say 'told you so!' OK you were right :) Of all the people I had strong discussions with it always made me laugh that Tophat was closest to guessing how I really felt and FunkyDerek and Tetra. had the same scientific beliefs (eventually - I had a long way to go). Its a funny old world. I'm still (just) LDS and I still on balance love it but I'm now a cultural member rather than a drone (they call us NOMs!) I hope that these experiences from an LDS viewpoint (and books) may help someone who may be finding it difficult to fully accept that the JWs (or any dogmatic religion) are also not what they claim - it hurts like hell but realising that it might be wrong is the first step - you may even be able to free your mind and still enjoy actively being in your faith like I do - who knows.
If anyone wants to see who I am I took part in a video as the presenter at - http://www.fromamongallnations.com/ - just being a little bit narcissistic in thinking anyone might like to know who I am :)
I won't post my specific LDS gripes and inconsistencies here - I'll save that for LDS boards. My exploration continues and I'll still read posts here - I just don't at the moment intend to post again. Thank you for being fun, informative and a big part of my evolution in thinking. I'm sad that the board will one day cease - I hope you will survive as a group!
Thanks Dave.
Thanks for all the fish
by Qcmbr 9 Replies latest jw friends
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Qcmbr
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ninja
well done daveyboy.....more power to your elbow sir.....you are a survivor like everyone on here.....enjoy life and tell the mormons ....from one cult to another....we said hello....he he....cheers da ninja
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Open mind
Welcome to the real world Dave.
Thanks for sharing your journey so far.
All the best to you on the road ahead.
om
p.s. Have you seen this Mormon vs. JW street brawl comedy video called "The Missionary Position"?
I think you'll enjoy it.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/the-missionary-position/2221423851
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PrimateDave
Very nice farewell post. I kind of figured it was a farewell post due to the Douglas Adams reference in the title. You have definitely done your "homework," and it has obviously empowered you in your life journey. I wish you every success in the future.
Dave (yet another ;) -
Mickey mouse
Wow. I think defending your "faith" can open a crack in your mind to allow a little light in.
A few months before I came to this site I was a witness apologist myself. I defended "the truth" vigorously on one forum but some of the things about the organization's past that I hadn't known previously shocked me and stuck in my mind.
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Satanus
Quite a ride. Thanks for coming back. A few of your turns reminded me of those i also went through. The difference between lds and jw religion is that jw has no culture, when you lose it, it's 100% gone. A few manage to keep some friends or family. Anyhow, i salute your courage and honesty in putting everything on the line, like that. Good luck, wherever you may be going.
S -
Awakened at Gilead
I've been through a similar journey, from JWism to doubting the Bible, to skepticism and atheism... doing similar research along the way... Congrats on escaping, it hurts but freedom from mind control rocks!
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jaguarbass
Hello Dave. I enjoyed your post. Looking at some of the books you have read, I was thinking you might enjoy reading a book that I am reading now and am enjoying.
The Gods of Eden. by William Bramley.
The Gods of Eden might give you one more possible idea about what is going on in this life.
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PrimateDave
Sorry, this is getting OT, but are you starting to promote Scientology, jaguarbass?
Review of Gods of Eden
Dave -
jaguarbass
Sorry, this is getting OT, but are you starting to promote Scientology, jaguarbass?
Hello Dave: I read a lot of books. I work the midnight shift in a jail. I have read dianetics years ago.
I did not know that The Gods of Eden had anything to do with scientology.
It may, I am not that up on scientology.
But the Gods of Eden is provacative to me. Because the information I have read so far keeps saying design and this is another version of a design theory. But it also leave room for evolution.
I just went to Barnes and noble and the cover jumped out at me and I bought it.
I also enjoyed "The Chariots of the Gods."
2 weeks ago I finished reading the "Secret history of the world and how to get out alive"
So, stepping back and looking at my recent readings I see I am on a conspiracy streak. I am not a fan of conspiracy theories. But that theme ends up in a lot of books that I read.
But not intentionally, I just read lots of books and the books I am reading at the moment have that theme.
I read all kinds of books 2 weeks ago I was reading John Steinbeck.
I get the conspiracy buzz from the Gods of Eden. It talks about the illuminati, the world banking system, the nephalim the gods, spacemen marrying women. Mary being artificially inseminated to bear Jesus as a virgin.
I suspect by the time I die, I will have 10 or more theories of where man came from and where he is going and all of the theories will have holes in them. Because I suspect that we are programed not to be able to figure out what is going on.
Which is a self fullfuling prophecy that I cant get around. Because I believe I and everyone else sees what they want to see.
And I'm not sure how to divorce my subconcious agenda from reality.
Which to me has something to do with quantum physics. Elements have been observed in 2 places at the same time. So that tells me that my realtiy and your reality may not be the same even though at this moment we are comunicating.
Back to your initial inquiry. I am not trying to turn anyone on to Scientology. I do not have a good vibe about that religion. Their headquarters is down the street from my home and they are all zombies. Much more so than the JW's.
I dont think I will ever take the scientology pill.
But I do plan on reading more L.Ron Hubbard.
I am working on reading the 100 best books of all time and he has a few entries.
I will say I know how the scientologist promote his books.
But being an entertainer, I also know how most successful artist promote their works.
If you have enough money you can have a hit, book or song. You just buy enough of your cd, or book and it gets on the charts then you redistribute the books you bought back into circulation. If you do it enough times you can have Dianetics, or pink Floyds "dark side of the moon."
Thats how they make hits. People listen to and buy hits.
I did book mark your review of Gods of Eden and will read it latter. I have to go to sleep now.