When Debating With Witnesses- Is Arguing Doctrine Beneficial ? Steve Hassan

by flipper 47 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  dinah

  Outlaw, love your take on that.

  You can't debate a JW. They learn to debate in the TMS. Their minds are closed. You simply cannot reason with them. Mind control runs deep.

  I mean, they have the ear of GOD! God loves ONLY them......plus you have the fear pounded into you at every turn. I finally got to the point that I asked God, if I'm not good enough just kill me. Dared him to kill me on my front porch. Gave God a really "come to Jesus" talk, and pretty much told him I was DONE!

  Dubs are too afraid of God to talk to him for fear of saying the wrong thing. I think as long as you are honest with him, he'll listen. Have you ever been really, really, mad at you Daddy? I have. But my Dad is approachable and open to reason. He doesn't punish me now for things I did when I was a child. We laugh about most of it.

  The best approach is to be happy without the WT and let them see that you are not in constant turmoil without them.
• 

  flipper

  DINAH- It is true the witnesses minds are really closed. They are also very superstitiously in fear of God, er Jehovah , actually they are more in fear of the Watchtower society actually, truth be told ! But you are right ; the best way to reach them is to show we are doing fine in our lives after leaving the cult and we are not groveling to get back in , as we are not living in a panic . Good points
• 

  mcsemike

  Hi Flipper: You are right. I have that book, it was given to me as a gift from someone who posts here regularly.

  I had one course on this in college for the psych degree. It was appropriately called "Abnormal Psychology". Being a JW is all about psych issues. The doctrine deal is a joke. Eternal life couldn't hinge on what lumber yard they got the cross/stake from for Jesus. Like that's important.

  And the burning hell and immortal soul issues were being taught in MANY other churches before Russell was born.

  In talking to a JW, you can't attack the doctrine. Then they fight like a cornered lion. You can shoot them dead with the real true doctrines but since they don't play by the rules, they won't lie down and "be dead". They say "you missed me" or "I am rubber, you are glue......etc." Very childish but true.

  Find out WHY they joined and that's half the battle. My best to all.
• 

  flipper

  MCSCMIKE- I agree with you that it is a psychological issue that keeps the Jehovah's Witnesses in the cult. Has nothing to do with doctrine. My son took " abnormal psychology " in college as well, he said it's very interesting. I'm always reading psychology books myself as I'm fascinated by the subject . Good point you make to find out why a person joined the witnesses in the first place . Man, if we all knew that we'd be millionaires ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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  lavendar

  My friend and I each have loved ones enslaved in the WTS, and we both have a burden on our hearts to see them set FREE. We both have had many, many conversations with our JW loved ones, and have tried to pose some good thought-provoking questions to try to get them to see the light; but the questions and discussions were mostly about doctrine. Needless to say, we both have gotten NO WHERE fast. No matter what you say, the JWs always come back with some "answer". They twist scripture to fit their beliefs.

  I'm beginning to think my friend and I should try something different. Instead of debating doctrine, perhaps we should concentrate on showing the falsehoods, lies, etc of the ORGANIZATION ITSELF. What do you think?

  PS: Happy birthday, Mr Flipper!

  Lavendar
• 

  reniaa

  lol do you think this could work on me? hehe nope my issues are definitely doctrinal (trinity no thx)

  I would think there would be more success with this stuff with people that live in a closed community cult and were the contrast between one life and another is quite great.

  Things in your favour are the shunning, blood and education issues are the biggest contrast to outside the JW's, Also like with any church there is a belief in the leaders that is very strong, show the leaders have feet of clay in the case the WTS society and you might have some results (lol this doesn't work with me either but I don't ask perfection of men even if they are leaders) but if you fall into the mindset that they are a definite cult then you will fail they are more a religion than a cult, that all religions have cult tendencies by virtue that all religions say that God is salvation from a hard life (and this is were you are also weak because you cannot guarantee a better life on the outside once you have done your thing, that person still has to live and cope with daily life inc illness, death, danger jobs etc and they are drawn to a belief in god that gives them hope from these, that is why they do ask for alternatives

  but you can ignore me by your standards i'm still a brainwashed zombie therefore I know not what I speak ^^
• 

  Graham G.

  Debating Doctrines, or showing them proof of WTS failure & misconduct will only result in the fact that they now see you as 'weak' and somebody to be ignored.

  My family is still active, but the do not know I have not been to the meetings for over 3 years, so that gives me a good opportunity to speak to them, while they still think I'm one of them.

  Last month my brother, his wife AND my mother (all witnesses) all had to deal with severe illness and hospital treatment. I encouraged them as much as I could, and mentioned to them how blessed they were that some people have chosen to follow a higher education, and become doctors, and are now able to perform life saving surgeries. They immidiately agreed! But if I had made the same point, while being an Apostate (in their eyes) nobody would have listened to me.

  What I try to say is, I always seek zealously for the right opportunity, to say the right thing. Something that MAKES THEM THINK. The best thing is, that they constantly praise my spirituality!
• 

  dawg

  Yea, you can go years and years trying this....
  
  "Debating Doctrines, or showing them proof of WTS failure & misconduct will only result in the fact that they now see you as 'weak' and somebody to be ignored."
  
  Which is a cop out; and I challenge Steve Hasslins approach on those grounds. You can try and plant seeds, but sooner or later, after years of shunning, and mistreatment, you'll finally get enough and let them have it...
  
  I did, and it was the beast thing I've ever done, two things accomplished by my actions, 1) People in the family still in are scared out of their pants by me because I told them in my letters they damned well better not shun me, that if they did, I publicly draw attention to their behavior... I let them know it's their actions that I wouldn't take any longer and it was them wrong not me! 2) more and more people are becoming less afraid to challenge the religion... there's strength in numbers and more of my family are talking to me and becoming less afraid.
  
  I've asked over and over if anyone can say that doing nothing accomplishes anything.... no one can point me to a person that has been effected and removed from the cult by the inaction of others...
  
  We MUST let them know that we know better, that their actions will not freaking be tolerated, that we know the truth...
  
  When they say, "where else can we go" say, the Bible says God is a spirit, and he should be worshiped in spirit and truth, you should always seek out the truth and nothing else. God wouldn't want you to do otherwise so by continuing to tell others about doctrines that are false, you're displeasing God himself.
• 

  dawg

  Yea, you can go years and years trying this....
  
  "Debating Doctrines, or showing them proof of WTS failure & misconduct will only result in the fact that they now see you as 'weak' and somebody to be ignored."
  
  Which is a cop out; and I challenge Steve Hasslins approach on those grounds. You can try and plant seeds, but sooner or later, after years of shunning, and mistreatment, you'll finally get enough and let them have it...
  
  I did, and it was the best thing I've ever done, two things accomplished by my actions, 1) People in the family still in are scared out of their pants by me because I told them in my letters they damned well better not shun me, that if they did, I publicly draw attention to their behavior... I let them know it's their actions that I wouldn't take any longer and it was them wrong not me! 2) more and more people are becoming less afraid to challenge the religion... there's strength in numbers and more of my family are talking to me and becoming less afraid.
  
  I've asked over and over if anyone can say that doing nothing accomplishes anything.... no one can point me to a person that has been effected and removed from the cult by the inaction of others...
  
  We MUST let them know that we know better, that their actions will not freaking be tolerated, that we know the truth...
  
  When they say, "where else can we go" say, the Bible says God is a spirit, and he should be worshiped in spirit and truth, you should always seek out the truth and nothing else. God wouldn't want you to do otherwise so by continuing to tell others about doctrines that are false, you're displeasing God himself.
• 

  Graham G.

  Quote - I told them in my letters they damned well better not shun me, that if they did, I publicly draw attention to their behavior... I let them know it's their actions that I wouldn't take any longer and it was them wrong not me! -end quote

  Very good point Dawg. Never thought about that approach. They only reason why my wife stays a JW is because she is affraid her mother will never speak to her again. They are at fault, they are the ones choosing to shun, and they should be held accountable for that. It's like standing up to a bully.

  I have no family where I live, so I don't care about the family shunning. But that may be a great idea for my wife.

  I find this a very good thread.