Please take a quick glance at the following as I am in final preparations for sitting in with my wife on her BS this evening...the sister is bringing along her husband, the PO from the congregation to answer some of my questions. I know there will not be time to get to all of this, but is any of it extremely good or extremely worthless to ask. I need to remember to keep calm, respectful, and realize that I can not attack, there may be times when I need to ask for more time.
I also want to ensure that we stay on Michael = Jesus and the generation discussion, not to let them pull me off to another topic.
I appreciate all of your time in looking at this for me.
Background Questions:
How long have you been a JW?
Did you study about the JWs before becoming one?
What do you like about the JWs?
What don’t you like about the JWs?
What is the duty of a PO?
What sort of training have you received?
What makes one an elder (spirit appointed)?
Have you ever studied the bible from outside of the purview of the JWs?
Some general questions – do you believe that the bible was written to all people?
Do you believe that anyone, anywhere who had just a Bible could understand it and be saved??
Should a person examine both the teachings as well as the history of a religion before deciding if it is the right faith for them?
Is membership in an organization required for eternal life?
When I look at a church (or any organization) to join, one of the things I consider is benevolence, in the NT, Jesus often speaks of healing the sick, feeding the hungry and even says: From Matthew 25 (NWT)
41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
How do Jehovah’s Witnesses follow this teaching?
Door to Door – show in the bible where Jesus went door to door – Luke 10:7 – do not go house to house!!! – the sister talked about how the jws are following Christ by door to door ministry….yes Jesus went to houses, but not back…to back….to back…
Paradise Earth, the sister looked up paradise last week in the concordance, only three places the word paradise is in the Bible, and two are associated with heaven……have you found me any additional information on this
Copy of proclaimers book, copy of references for the Trinity brochure.
Psalm 37, read in its entirety, this psalm or poem is not prophetic, but seems to be talking about the time the author was living it…..quotes from NWT
vs. 19 - They will not be ashamed in the time of calamity,
And in the days of famine they will be satisfied. (will there be famine on PE?)
vs. 25 - young man I used to be, I have also grown old,
And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely,
Nor his offspring looking for bread.
Michael/Jesus:
Jude 1:9 vs. Matthew 4:10 – 11
Michael does not rebuke, calls on Jehovah, but Jesus rebukes
Hebrews chapter 1:
Tells how Jesus is much better than an angel
Daniel 10:13
One of the foremost princes….not the foremost prince – other angels are equal to Michael
Daniel 12:1
WTS argument on 10:13 – just because he is fighting the war does not mean he is also Jesus – archangels are like generals, they lead the Army. Though not in the current canon of 66 books, the book of Enoch does mention seven archangels.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Voice of an archangel – is Jesus also the “trump of God”?
Just because both Michael and Jesus are mentioned in the same manner does not make them the same! Other scriptures show Jesus arriving with the angels. If someone is said to have the patience of Job, does that make them Job?
Anointed/Generation:
We had talked on the phone about the changing of the generation from what was in the Reasoning book, prior to this change in definition of generation; did you feel pretty certain that you were going to be around to see the beginning of the last days? Were you disappointed by the change??
Have there been other changes in the generation teaching?
There are only 144000 who have a heavenly calling and I believe that the remnant is somewhere around 8000 or so, I had asked you about the average of about 70 a year over 2000 years being anointed, could you help me fill in this table?
(Pre-Christ deserving ones)
100 (years after Christ)
200 (years, after this date Christendom was to have descended in to the "great apostacy". Up until 1874 they believed a "remnant" remained on earth with the "truth". But they are fuzzy on details)
1000 (years)
1874 Is this when the jws sort of started?
1914 of course the invisible return of Christ
1918 around the time the jws were selected as the FD&S
1937 (Approximately when the two class doctrine was announced)
1995 (Changed doctrine on the remnant.)
2000 (i.e. compared to today)
How many anointed were selected (total sum) and remaining alive at each point of history?
Final prep for 'bible' study tonite, topics Michael = Jesus and Generation
by insearchoftruth 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
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insearchoftruth
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2112
Wow you have a lot here and you are correct you will not be able to go over it all tonight. However if the PO sees this list he will try and answer everything in one sitting but he will expect you to accept everything he says without question. He will expect you to be so impressed with his knowledge that you must accept it.
You must not talk about more that two topics. Michael - Jesus is a very good one to start with. You seem to have a good grasp on the scriptures with this so I would start there. Do not let him rush through his explanations/answers. He will try and go fast so don't let him. When he starts to jump from scripture to scripture stop him and say "No lets discuss this scripture first, in it's context." This will distrube him and he may reply - It has to be in the context of the Bible, or something like that. Just say that each writer wrote in context of their own book, at the time of the writing they did not have the other books to "Get in context with."
Another thing they do quite often is when you don't see things their way they will sort of smile and chuckle as if to say you are so below me. It is meant to be very condescending, after you have questions and they alone have the answers. When this happens call him on it this is how I replied when they did it to me; "This is not funny, I find no humor in this. You claim my eternal salvation is involved and you laugh because I do agree with what you are saying. Maybe it is you that doesn't fully understand, after all you claim to have the answers yet you haven't convinced me. And with your condescending attitued you obviously think I am below you, so use your superrior knowledge and convence me." It changed the entier mood yes but it did become more respectful and it put them on the defencive, even though they were there to "teach" me.
Also just to bring in your question - Could a person using the Bible ever come to accurate knowledge and gain salvation? (I know you worded yours a bit differently)
Insist that you use the Bible only, he will object but insist on it. Everytime he tries to open another book insist again. If he persists, and he will, ask your question. Then press him on it. He will try and pull a scripture on you about the Etheopion eunic reading some scriptuers and I believe it was Peter heard and asked if he understood what he was reading. The responce was no I need a teacher. They think that answers the question. However, just say "That is fine but why would the Eunic not understand what he was reading - becaues he was not a Jew." Then say - did Peter use a WT or other publication or did he use only the scriptures the Eunic was reading? Plus after the "teaching" was done the Eunic was babtized immediately. He did not have to study other publications fir a long time and he did not have to answer 100 or more questions.
At the point ask your question again a bit differently - "Can a person using only the Bible alone ever come to the same conclusions as the JW teaches?" This puts then in a corner becaues if they say no then that opens up a load of questions about the Bibles authority that I am sure you can think of. If they say yes the you can easily insist on using the Bible only in your discussion.
A bit long I know, I hope it helps a little. Good luck, please let us know how it goes.
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New light for you
I agree you have ALOT of info...
If you decided to talk about when the FDS was "appointed" in 1918- it's quite interesting. ASK what were the witnesses teaching THEN that would show god at that time they were deserving of that appointment.....
They wont know. Tell them you want to see in print. I went over this with my elders.. they had no clue. Everything we were teaching then you could be DFed for now. it was all incorrect, and if they see it, they'll know that.
Second point with 1918 appt. is that they were NOT looking for it then, they believed it already happened years previous. They will say "thats not true" but again, if you look in publications, we believed jesus came... (someone here will know) i believe still 18something? Anyway, it's one of those things the elders dont even have a clue about. When i talked to my elders, at the time i was brushed up on the materials.. and they kept telling me i wasn't right. Then i looked at the WT publications, and I was the one who was correct.
All of that info is located in "captives of a concept" book. they also have alot of those questions you listed in there. One you might have missed is "Would you be allowed to talk to an EXJW to find out why they left?" - they are NOT allowed. SO either, they'll say "no we cant" and then you can ask why, or they'll lie and say "sure we can, but i dont want to" and then you can call 'em on it.
Good luck!
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Robert7
Here are 2 great general questions I think you should ask. You can position it as questions you would ask entering ANY organization, whether it be a job/company, club, etc.
1) Name 3 things you dislike about the organization, or being a JW. (If anyone says there are none, they are covering something up, no organization is perfect)
2) Have you ever had a discussion with any former members as to why they left? How do you (the student) have access to former members? You should ask to speak to some former members to understand their perspective of the organization.
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Leolaia
Just a few more things:
WTS argument on 10:13 – just because he is fighting the war does not mean he is also Jesus – archangels are like generals, they lead the Army. Though not in the current canon of 66 books, the book of Enoch does mention seven archangels.
It is worth pointing out that the letter of Jude quotes 1 Enoch 1:9 in v. 14-15 as inspired prophecy and v. 6, 12-13 also show clear literary dependence on 1 Enoch. Not coincidentally, this is the only place in the Bible where Michael is called an archangel (v. 9).
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Voice of an archangel – is Jesus also the “trump of God”?I think you've got the right point here. Just to be more explicit, the "voice of an archangel" is one of the things that accompany the Lord's coming: "The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God". All three of these are SOUNDS that ring out at the time when the Lord comes to the earth; in no sense does it identify the Lord with the archangel.
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insearchoftruth
Took the following from the Aid to Bible Understanding book......
Enoch is not the writer of the "Book of Enoch ."
This is an uninspired, apocryphal book written many
centuries later, probably sometime during the second
and first centuries B .C .E .How is this reconciled with the book of Jude quoting from Enoch???
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Leolaia
insearchoftruth....Simply put, the author of the Aid book did not share the same attitude about the book of 1 Enoch as the author of Jude, who really did believe he was quoting from "Enoch, the seventh from Adam", and who believed that he was quoting inspired prophecy. It was for this reason that many were reluctant to admit Jude into the canon of the NT but the opinions of those who valued the letter more for its apostolic merit won out (although Jude and some of the other General Epistles are still not recognized as belonging to the NT by the Syrian Nestorian Church).
I wrote a very detailed thread about the relationship between Jude and 1 Enoch here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85223/1.ashx
Here are the passages where dependence is most obvious:
Jude 6: " And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, he has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day."
1 Enoch 12:4: "Go and make known to the Watchers of heaven who have abandoned the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women."
1 Enoch 15:3, 7: "For what reason have you abandoned the high, holy, and eternal heaven; and slept with women and defiled yourselves with the daughters of the people....I did not make wives for you, for the proper abode of spiritual beings of heaven is heaven."
1 Enoch 10:4-6: "Go, Raphael, and bind Asael hand and foot and throw him into the darkness....Cover up his face in order that he may not see light, in order that he may be sent into the fire on the great day of judgment."
1 Enoch 10:11-12: "Go, Michael, and bind Shemihazah and the others with him, who have fornicated with the daughters of men, that they will die together with them in all their defilement...Bind them for seventy generations underneath the rocks of the ground until the day of their judgment and consummation, until the eternal judgment is concluded".
Jude 12-13: "They are clouds blown along by the wind without giving rain, autumnal trees bearing no fruit, dead twice over and uprooted, wild waves of the sea casting up the foam of their abominations, wandering stars for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever".
1 Enoch 2:1-5:3: "Contemplate all the events of heaven, how the lights in heaven do not change their courses, how each rises and sets in order, each at its proper time, and they do not transgress their own appointed order. Observe the earth, and contemplate the works that take place on it from the beginning until the consummation...Observe the signs of summer and winter. Contemplate the signs of winter, that all the earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain rest upon it. Contemplate and observe how all the trees appear withered and how all their leaves are stripped... Contemplate all the trees, their leaves blossom green them and they cover the trees and bear fruit.... Observe how, in like manner, the sea and the rivers carry out and do not alter their tasks from his commandments".
1 Enoch 18:14-16: "This place is the ultimate end of heaven and earth: it is the prison house for the stars and the powers of heaven. And the stars which roll over upon the fire, they are the ones which have transgressed the commandments of God from the beginning of their rising because they did not arrive punctually. And he was wroth with them and bound them until the time of the completion of their sin."
1 Enoch 21:6: "These are among the stars of heaven which have transgressed the commandments of God and are bound in this place until the completion of ten million years, according to the number of their sins."
1 Enoch 80:2-6: "In the days of the sinners the years will grow shorter ... everything on the earth will change and will not appear at their times, the rain will be withheld, and the sky will retain it. At those times, the fruit of the earth will be late and will not grow at its normal time, and the fruit of the trees will be withheld at its proper time. The moon will change its order and will not appear at its proper time ... Many heads of stars will wander from their command and will change their ways and actions and will not appear at the times prescribed for them".
1 Enoch 88:1-3: "He seized that first star that had fallen from heaven, and he bound it by its hands and feet and threw it into an abyss, and that abyss was narrow and deep and desolate and dark...One of those four who had come forth hurled stones from heaven and gathered and took all the great stars, whose organs were like the organs of horses, and bound all of them by their hands and their feet, and threw them into an abyss of the earth".
1 Enoch 101:2-6: "If he closes the windows of heaven, and withholds the dew and the rain from descending because of you, what will you do? Why do you speak with your mouth proud and hard things against his majesty? You will have no peace. Look at the captains who sail the sea! Their ships are shaken by wave and storm ... are not all the sea and all its waters and all its movement the work of the Most High?"
Jude 14-16: " And about these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.' These people are discontented murmurers, who follow their own desires. Their mouths utter proud things and they show partiality for the sake of gain. "
1 Enoch 60:8: "...the garden of Eden, wherein the elect and the righteous ones dwell, wherein my grandfather [Enoch] was taken, the seventh from Adam."
1 Enoch 1:9: "Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones to execute judgment on all, and to destroy the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and harsh words that wicked sinners spoke against him."
1 Enoch 5:4: "You have not been long-suffering and you have not done the commandments of the Lord, but you have transgressed and spoken proud and harsh words with your unclean mouths against his majesty."
1 Enoch 27:2: "This accursed valley is for those accursed forever; here will gather together all the accursed ones, those whoutter with their mouth improper words against the Lord and speak harsh words against his glory."
1 Enoch 101:2-3: "If he closes the windows of heaven and withholds the dew and rain from descending because of you, what will you do? Why do you speak with your mouth proud and hard things against his majesty?"
Reflect also on the fact that there is nothing in the OT about Enoch's prophecy or the fact that the angels that sinned were bound and thrown into a dark abyss. Neither is there anything in the OT about archangel Michael's dispute with the Devil about the body of Moses. That story comes from another pseudepigraphal book, the Assumption of Moses. So the author of Jude was steeped in this sort of literature. It is also worth noting that 1 Enoch was also quoted explicitly as scripture by other Christians in the second century AD. It became increasingly disputed in the third century when Christians realized that Jews generally did not admit it into their OT canon.
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TheListener
Interesting topic.
I don't have a copy of my NWT with references handy.
Does the NWT give any cross-references for the scriptures which seem to come from Enoch?
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Leolaia
TheListener: The reference NWT has references only to passages in the Bible that have a similar thought or wording. In part, the similarity in wording to due to the fact that the author of this portion of 1 Enoch composed his writing largely by reusing language found in the OT. The whole first chapter of 1 Enoch is somewhat of a pastiche of traditional material that has been combined into a new writing. I show this verse by verse in the thread linked above, but here is the passage quoted by the author of Jude:
1 Enoch 1:9: "Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones to execute judgment on all, and to destroy the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him".
Isaiah 66:15-16: "For behold, Yahweh will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will Yahweh execute judgment, and by his sword against all flesh, and those slain by Yahweh will be many".
Deuteronomy 33:2: "He came forth with myriads of his holy ones from the south".
Jeremiah 25:30-31: "Yahweh will roar from on high, and from his holy habitation utter his voice .... The clamor will resound to the ends of the earth, for Yahweh has a conviction against all the nations; he is entering in judgment against all flesh, and the wicked he will put to the sword".
Daniel 7:25, 11:36: "He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy ones...He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods".
This literary dependence on the OT also shows that the Society's argument that the author of Jude and the author of 1 Enoch both independently used a genuine prophecy of Enoch is mere special pleading; this passage like the rest of 1 Enoch 1 is composed out of material from the OT much later than the supposed time of Enoch. And the fact that Jude shows a general acquaintance with other parts of 1 Enoch is further proof that he used this pseudepigraphal book along with others.
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Guest with Questions
I agree with 2112 that you need to stay with a couple subjects that you have decided on. As you know they will try to change the subject or confuse you with a bunch of scripture. If you have a Kingdom Interlinear it would be extremely helpful. Hopefully I haven't given you too much information but gave it with the thought that it could be used another time or by someone else. I haven't read all the responses but will. Any information to help get my mom out is greatly appreciated.
For me one of the biggies is the Mediator. The bible clearly states that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man yet the Org teaches that the Great Crowd’s mediator is the organization. They teach a different Jesus from the Bible "...if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Cor 11:4
Mediator
What Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught
Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace""
pp. 10-11 "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members."w81 8/1 p. 26 Harvesting in the "Time of the End" *** Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed "brothers" of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into "everlasting cutting-off" or receive "everlasting life."
Watchtower
1979 April 1 p.31 "Is Jesus the ""mediator" only for anointed Christians? …… So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator"" only for anointed Christians. ……The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant." Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men" "They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."——1 Pet. 2:9. 24 Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.——Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. 25 To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the ""great crowd"" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites."What does the bible say?
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:1-5
"But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ" Corinthians 11:3
Spiritual Israel
I’m doing a personal study on this subject. The Jehovah Witness Organization is not the Spiritual Israel that the bible speaks of. At this point I don’t believe that the Jews were ever replaced by the Church (replacement theology) and definitely not by the Org. It's just in the beginning stage but I hope to have it done before this site closes for anyone that might be interested. It's interesting to note that in Ephesians it states that both the Gentiles and Israel are now one body which to me would mean one hope, not the two hopes of the Watchtower - 144,000 and the Great Crowd. If I can show that Spiritual Israel are today's Israeli's then it proves that the whole interpretation of the Watchtower regarding the 144,000 being the Spiritual Israel is false. Even if the Watchtower interpretation is correct (which I know is not) how do they then explain that the Great Crowd are heirs together with the 144,000, member together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus?
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
God made 5 covenants with Israel.
One conditional
(the Mosaic- Exodus 19:5, 20:1-17, Deut 28:1-68)
Three were unconditional
Abrahamic
- Genesis 12:1-3, 17:1-14, The covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, jacob and their descendants.Israel
- Genesis 15:18-21,17:7-8,The covenant of the Promised Land.Davidic
- 2 Sam 7:12-13 The covenant of the Never-ending Kingdom.Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.Ephesians 2:11-22
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) – remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise,without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through he blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household , built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which god lives by his Spirit.Ephesians 3:2
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to mn in other generations as it has now been revealed by the spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.Jesus/Michael
This site may be of help to you. http://www.4jehovah.org/jehovahs-witness-archangel.php
Jesus has authority to rebuke Satan: Mark 8:33
Michael can’t rebuke Satan: Jude 9
Jesus Exclusively God’s Son: Hebrews 1:5
Michael Has an inferior name: Hebrews 1:4
Jesus Receives worship and God’s future Kingdom: Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:17-18
Michael Rejects worship; Not given God’s Kingdom: Revelation 22:8-9; Hebrews 2:5
Creator
Question: First, ask if you can both agree that the old testament states that God, Jehovah, is the Creator of all things?
Isaiah 44:24 I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it, My own hands stretched out the heavens; and Isaiah 48:12: My own hand laid the foundations of the earth.
Romans 11:36. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Heb. 3:3-4 says that Jesus has been found worthy of greater honour than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honour than the house itself, for every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything."
Question: So Isaiah & Romans say that God created all, Hebrews says that both Jesus and God created all, yet Colossians says that Jesus created all?
New International Version:
Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.New World Translation
: Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth; the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him, and for him. Also, he is before all (other) things and by means of him all (other) things were made to exist.Kingdom Interlinear)
15 who is image of the God the invisible, firstborn of al1 creation, 16 because in him it was created the all (things) in the heavens and upon earth, the (things) visible and the (things) invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all (things) through him and into him it has been created; 17 and he is before all (things) and the all (things) in him it has stood together,Question: It looks like both NIV and KI agree but NWT has inserted (other). This changes the meaning, it doesn’t make it easier to read or understand. How can both God and Jesus be creators and sustainers?
Alpha & Omega
Isaiah 44:6 says This is what the Lord says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty. "I am the First and I am the Last." Isaiah 48:12 says the same thing, I am the First and I am the Last.
Question: So who's this referring to?
Revelation 1:8 says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Question: Who is the Alpha and the Omega?
Revelation 21:6-7 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Question: Who is the 'Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega in these verses?
Revelations 22:12 and 13 NWT Look, I am coming quickly and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
Question: Who is spoken of here?
Revelations 1: 17 and 18. And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: "Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but , look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Revelations 2:8 And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrna write: These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life (again).
Question: Are you telling me then that Jehovah God died?
Who is Coming?
Revelations 1:4 Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ.
Question: Who is spoken of here?
Revelations 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him;
Revelations 4:8 says: Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.
Question: So who is coming?
Revelations 22:7 states : Behold I am coming soon.
Revelations 22:12 and 13: Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone acccording to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Question: So who is coming soon in these verses?
Revelations 22:20 it says,: Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come Lord Jesus.