HERE'S A BOMBSHELL ABOUT THE 144,000 DOCTRINE......

by Mary 82 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Nick!
    Nick!

    My Dear Mary,

    I have been an elder for almost 30 years, and I would have given you the following … explanation:

    “You should know, my dear Mary, that the 12 tribes of Israel did not equate the 12 sons of Jacob.
    If you don’t believe me, just take a map of the ancient Israel, and you will see the fact!

    The twelve tribes are nothing else but the 10 sons of Jacob, excluding Joseph and Levi, plus … the two sons of Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim. This makes up the twelve tribes of Israel! And why Joseph was privileged with “two portions” of the promised land, instead of the “one portion” secured by his 9 other brothers? Simply because, and you should know, that Ruben, Jacob first born, went to bed with the servant of his preferred wife, Rachel! In Israel, the first born had always a “double portion” of the heritage of the family, compared to his brothers. Since Ruben, Jacob first born through Lea, had committed immorality with his father’s concubine, the father has taken away the heritage of Ruben and given it to Joseph, who was the first born of his beloved wife, Rachel.
    This heritage story is behind the “two portions” of the promised land given to the two sons of Joseph.

    The 144’000 heavenly class is a “priestly” class, which did not have any territory in Israel, because they were dedicated entirely to the temple work, in the so called “presence of Jehovah”.

    When Jesus addressed his disciples, telling them that they would be judging the 12 tribes of Israel, this simply meant that the “heavenly” priestly class of Levi, who represented Israel in its entirety, would be judging the rest of the sons of Joseph, now organized in 12 tribes.

    You should recall, in this respect that, when the Israelites left Egypt, the first born of Egypt were destroyed by Jehovah’s angel, but the first born of Israel were saved. For this salvation, Jehovah asked for the first born of Israel to be his own possession. Because this would have represented an obvious problem (how to keep the first born for himself, once these would be dead?), Jehovah asked Moses to count the number of first born of the whole of Israel. As the Bible recalls, that number was basically the same as the number of people making up the tribe of Levi. Jehovah then accepted the deal, in exchange of all the first born of Israel, he would retain the entire tribe of Levi. This tribe was therefore separated for a sacred service, similar to the one performed by the class nearer to Jehovah, the heavenly class of the 144’000 anointed priests.

    This is how, the Spiritual Israel, who is nearest to Jehovah’s service, represents the 144’000 anointed priest class.
    The rest of the sons of Jacob, the 12 tribes, can therefore only represent the rest of the inhabitants who, at that time, were worshiping Jehovah at his temple, his heavenly temple. This is why they can only represent the rest of humanity who will be worshipping Jehovah in the New World, under the direction of the Spiritual Israel, the heavenly priestly class who will also act as judges.

    In fact you should also remember that the priests in Israel were also those who judged the people at the city doors! This is why Jesus promised his disciples that they would be judging the 12 tribes of Israel, that is to say, the rest of the sons of Jacob, at the doors of the heavenly Jerusalem!”

    How about that? You liked it?
    And now here comes, the ex elder, pointing out one simple aspect, which destroys the whole beautiful picture given by the faithful elder above:

    “Well my dear friend, I have a real problem with your complicated explanation.

    You should know, as an elder, that the 144’000 class, according to 1 Peter 2:9, is not only a “priestly” class, but also a “royal” class!
    In fact, we read in the Bible “But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light”

    Now, if you so professionally have dissociated the tribe of Levi, on the ground that they were a “special possession” because of the priestly service they were performing in the temple, you should, by the same token, dissociated the “royal” tribe of Judah, who performed a special royal service.
    If you do that, you end up with only … 11 tribes, which cannot be the same as the 12 tribes of Israel, Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18:29!

    You better find another more acceptable explanation”

    Hope you followed the intricate reasoning behind this stupid situation!

    P.S. – if you want me, I can dream about the answer the faithful elder would give this stupid ex elder!!!

    Nick!

    WHAT A PITY ... THEY CLOSING DOWN THIS FORUM!

  • Word
    Word

    The first twelve tribes were the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel)

    The new twelve tribes are the spiritual descendants of the twelve apostles.

    The twelve apostles (the little flock) are not the twelve spiritual tribes of Israel (other sheep)

  • Nick!
    Nick!

    Dan wrote:

    ””” There was a bro in one congregation that I attended for a number of years who was a bit of a local celebrity among the dubs due to his knowledge of the "deeper things" and his fearless, even aggressive approach to the preaching work™. If anybody had doubts or found what they thought was an inconsistency in the Society's teachings, he was brought in to straighten the wayward soul out, and he would have no trouble at all running circles around your average JW on any issue like the one here. He really did a mind-f*ck on a lot of people, me included ”””

    Hey Dan,
    who was that elder you were talking about? Me?

    Maybe, ... if you look at the explanation the “faithful elder” gave Mary, as I did on my previous post!

    Nick!

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Can you believe this? How the hell can the "twelve tribes of Israel" represent "the world" when they have clearly stated that it represents "spiritual Israel"?? You can't have a group with the identical name representing two different classes at the same time. If "the twelve tribes of Israel" represents "the world", then how can "the twelve tribes of Israel" represent those that are judging them???

    Mary,

    You are discussing what will happen in the re-creation and that takes place in the future. Of course the WT’s use of such terms does not mean anything. They really do not know what they are talking about and are simply winging it in this mysterious way to avoid explaining this time, this re-creation. It is after all the Kingdom message that we are to preach and they do not know it. Their explanations are confusing as you show and wrong scripturally. At that time we will be in what we call the Kingdom, or Paradise for some depending upon our status like the one the thief had that was executed with our Lord. Who then will be there? Resurrected mankind dating all the way back in time to the beginning; Jews, the Nations, anyone selected by Christ to be there for any reason like this thief. The statement can therefor be taken several ways. Since the 12 tribes will be there the statement of judging the 12 tribes can be taken literally. But since the Nations will also be there and since they now have the same Jewish Father as their savior, it could be said that they were also spliced into this nation by this new life, this rebirth. So it can be taken that way as well. But you do show how confused they are with their big shots in heaven while Christ returns here to this earth which is pretty much what most Churches also teach as well. What a mess. Time for everyone to re-dress everything for themselves.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Are you saying that the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes of the Jews? Does that 'recreation' take place on the earth? Is it the accepted catholic doctrine?

    Satanus,

    On the earth? Yes! Accepted catholic doctrine? I do not think so, at not least not what I was taught in Catholic school. They had people going to heaven when I was there as well.

    Joseph

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks Mary, the po and his wife may be over here on Wednesday, and if we talk Generation, the 144K just may come up, I may need to do some brushing up on the Insight book my wife has so I can sort of 'fumble' through it and come up with these questions in front of my wife and the po/sister.....but I have so many other questions.....great find!!!

    Your posts are always great!!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Joseph

    I thought that you were catholic. Maybe, i was wrong.. I'm just curious.

    S

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    Dan wrote:

    ””” There was a bro in one congregation that I attended for a number of years who was a bit of a local celebrity among the dubs due to his knowledge of the "deeper things" and his fearless, even aggressive approach to the preaching work™. If anybody had doubts or found what they thought was an inconsistency in the Society's teachings, he was brought in to straighten the wayward soul out, and he would have no trouble at all running circles around your average JW on any issue like the one here. He really did a mind-f*ck on a lot of people, me included ”””

    Hey Dan, who was that elder you were talking about? Me?

    Maybe, ... if you look at the explanation the “faithful elder” gave Mary, as I did on my previous post!

    Nick!

    Nick, I'm sure you're not him as I see in your profile that you were raised in da twoof and the elder (Ken) that I wrote of was a convert. But your explanation definitely is just the sort of head-spinning Tower-ese that Ken could recite at a moment's notice, and tell it to you like it all makes such perfect sense and see how easily any doubts we might have are resolved if we just reason it out? LOL

  • Word
    Word

    OK, here's the bombshell: In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells his apostles that in "the re-creation" they would "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

    re-creation = re-birth

    An ongoing spiritual event!

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE

    I personally have removed the word "should" from my vocabulary.

    Anyone using (and overusing) the word might want to ask himself, "Whose rule is that? Where did that belief come from? A parent? A teacher? Some other authority?" Likely they are reciting/repeating some rule/belief by rote. Where would free will take them on this issue? I figure the use of the word "should" to introduce almost every paragraph could constitute "overuse."

    He might want to ask himself, "What is my personal belief, rather than what someone told me to believe."

    He might find that under all the busy-ness in his mind, there could be some entirely different concept aside what has been rehearsed and repeated up till now. Certainly the JWs rehearse and repeat in their practice sessions during the mid-week meetings.

    Just a thought to encourage an individual's growth. Might help to expand the consciousness just a bit.

    ESTEE

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