The Two Greatest Commandments and Free Will???

Blueblades

When those who wrote the scriptures command the readers and or believers to obey by command the two greatest commandments. You must love God, you must love your neighbor, etc. Are the writers of scripture understanding what the true meaning of free will is?

Are they negating free will by force of command and pain of punishment if you refuse to obey these commands?

How can one express her/his free will and disobey any command without pain of punishment.

Can the command to love someone be forced, thereby negating ones free will by using pain and suffering to gain that love if one does not obey.

If you follow the command and give up your free will not to follow it, is it really true love or fear of the penalty to come because you did not obey the command.

I feel strongly that no one can command the love of someone else. That love has to come freely and from the heart.

So, God, Jesus, the writers of scripture nor anyone else can force us to obey any commandment without inteferring with free will.

What are your feelings and thoughts about this?

Blueblades

Narkissos

Hi blueblades,

In all your questions there is one element that you never question nor define, and seem to take for granted: "free will" itself...

For instance, (how) is "free will" ever involved in "love"? Do you choose to love? Is it still love if you do?

Also, (how/why) would a command (even implying a promise of reward and/or a threat of punishment) negate "free will"?

(How/why) would obeying or disobeying a command mean "giving up your free will" to do otherwise, instead of simply using it to either obey or disobey?

The most problematic notion imo is "free will" itself.

(Strangely, before I read your post I was thinking of starting a thread on "freedom" and "choice"... I may do it later not to hijack yours.)

sammielee24

Free will is only a term that has its parameters already defined for most of society therefore, it is subjective. I hear people touting personal responsibility and free will all the time but in reality, if parameters have been solidly set in religion, politics, environment or socially, then the majority of people will only be able to exert their free will within those confines. For example, it's easy to tell people they have free will in religion but the mental and emotional boundaries ie guilt and fear, that are set by the religion do not necessarily apply in the same manner they would to someone outside the boundaries. It's easy to tell someone they have free will in regards to poverty but it's a lame phrase unless we look at the mental, physical and emotional boundaries keeping those people inside. It's all subjective - sammieswife.

Blueblades

Hi Narkissos! My point is that the command to do something against your will because of fear of punishment and or death does take away your free will in that it removes the real free will action you would otherwise decide. Yes, it is true that you still are using your free will to obey or disobey, however, is it truly free will when it is tested by a command that threatens you into action that you otherwise would not consider, hence, imposing on your true free will not to obey a command without receiving a punishment of some kind.

As for love, I believe that it cannot be commanded. One chooses to love because one has reason to love without a command to do so and enforcing that command if you do otherwise.

My questions are in a religious context because as I noted in my original post, the writers of scripture are telling us that God/ Jesus are commanding love from us and if we don't love them we suffer punishment and or death. It is in this context that I believe our free will is not free but forced to do otherwise.

When someone says that they love God /Jesus, is it because of the reward to come or the fear of punishment to follow if they don't love God, Jesus,and their neighbor.

In the end I believe that neither God nor Jesus command this kind of love. I believe that man wrote this in scripture putting words into the mouth of God and Jesus.

Blueblades

JeffT

Two thoughts: first "love" in the Bible doesn't mean what we usually think of with the English word. Agape means to work well toward the object of love, to seek the other's best interests rather than your own. This is something you can choose to do or not do.

Secondly free will means having the opportunity to do wrong. An animal, which lives by instinct, can't make a wrong choice. It has no ethical duties it can violate, nor can it make a conscious choice between two courses of action.

The "command" to love your God and your neighbor is not inviolate, it is a delination of which of the choices before you is the better, more ethical one.

Blueblades

Hi Sammielee'swife. I agree with some of what you say, however free will goes beyond being subjective.You make the point that it, the use of free will, depends upon your station in life and that is why it is subjective. While that is partially true, it is not completely true.There are those who regardless of their station in life are not forced to use their free will subjectively.

People can use free will to gain something out of this life or use it to give something to another's life. All in all anytime one uses free will there is always an attachment to it.

Blueblades

Hi Jefft! The two greatest commandments, love God and your neighbor are based on Agape and should be a deliberate choice not forced.

If I choose not to love God or my neighbor, is that wrong, unethical.

Blueblades

Narkissos

It has long been shown that the command to love Yhwh in Deuteronomy, as many other features of this book, can be directly traced back to the Assyrian treaties of allegiance, where the vassal committed, among other things, to loving and serving the suzerain, under penalties which are also similar to the curses of the covenant between Yhwh and Israel. So the background of this expression is highly political, and it does imply violent threat. Of course the later history of this expression and its relationship to the distinct priestly command of loving one's neighbour (Leviticus 19:18) in both Judaism and Christianity cannot be reduced to this original background.

In Hebrew there is one main verb for all kinds of "love" ('hb), and it has been fairly consistently translated as agapaô in the Greek LXX regardless of the contexts (as in the very sexual "love" of Amnon for his half-sister Tamar or in the Song of Solomon for instance). So the oft-repeated suggestion that agapè means some special, "spiritual" love is philologically groundless.

Justitia Themis

I feel that you are mixing concepts. Free will is basically whether a rational person exercises control over his or her choices. Free will does not address consequences for choices.

milligal

I agree that free will is described in the Bible as the freedom to make your own choice and not be a robot thus "God loves a cheerful giver". How can you be cheerful and do something that goes against every fber of what you think is right? For instance, you are supposed to forgive your enemies, what if one of your enemies is a drunk driver who is responsible for the death of your spose or child. Do you really have to forgive that person or suffer the wrath of God?

You are right, the Bible talks out of both sides of "it's" mouth. On the one hand, be cheerful, on the other hand, do exactly as you are told. The two concepts DO NOT go together. Now, if you are agreeing to enter into a social contract for the sake of a greater good, and promise not to go out and murder the person who committed this crime....well that is a different thing than forgiveness. Still a good thing, but that is not how the Bible addresses the issue.

The Two Greatest Commandments and Free Will???

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