Who goes to heaven? (page 2)

ashitaka

No one, my friend. And no one else knows either...that's God's deal.

ashi

'When they die, they have paid.
This is incorrect. Only the Lamb can pay your debt. No one ese can pay for his own debt. When they are thrown into the Lake, they are destroyed in 'debt' because they cannot and WOULD NOT accept the free gift offered.

Only the blood of the Lamb can cover sins.. nothing and NO ONE else... save the Father himself.

Peace,
Aaron'

- Well smartmouth, I wonder if you misunderstand me willingly. When we die 1st death we are free of inherited sin. Then we are death and free from Gods anger. Jesus gives us a resurrection where we must earn our liferight. If we fail we go to 2nd death. Ofcause if you are kept in dark about the millenium reign you wouldnt know. And then you are incorrect :-).

God Blss

joelbear

No answers to my questions regarding the illogic of the idea of everyone going to heaven?

Joel

dubla

rev-

thanks for the novel. the next time i feel like taking a nice long bath i might print it out.

Well smartmouth, I wonder if you misunderstand me willingly.....

i dont very often agree with aarons posts, but i really dont think he was trying to be a "smartmouth" with this one, but merely voicing his opinion. thats just mho though. really rev, you should be giving him props as one of the only posters on this board that not only took the time to read your 10 chapters of drivel, but actually responded to your points.

aa

Rev BII

well dubla, never thought anyone read it in this forum :-).

following up to kev, here's various stuff I posted to people the last days, if anyone should care to read, I hope it's clear and evident,

There's no room for any afterlifepunishment. We inherit Adams deathsentence, we die/go to Sheol. There's no immortal soul, we are mortal souls. Thanks for Jesus we get a resurrection and those that died in him get a resurrection similar to his.

First of you have to make up your mind about what you believe in. You believe in the Bible you say? Fine, but do you believe in other books such as the apokryfs or Jewish mystery books? I believe in the Bible only. The OT is very clear on the soul. Soul means creation, none has a soul, we are souls. We inherit sin and we die for it, we inherit death. The Bible tells of dying souls;

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" --

Matthew 10:28 - And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.

So, the soul isn't immortal, it can't be proven from the Bible. I accept the Bible only. What's the point in believing in both the Bible and books that contradict it?

Immortality is a reward according to the Bible;

Romans 2:7 - to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Mankinds hope is the resurrection of just and unjust and their judgment in the 1.000 Years Reign;

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Revelations 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

1 Samuel 2:6 - The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Amos 9:I saw the LORD standing beside the altar, and he said: "Smite the capitals until the thresholds shake, and shatter them on the heads of all the people; and what are left of them I will slay with the sword; not one of them shall flee away, not one of them shall escape. 2 "Though they dig into Sheol, from there shall my hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down.

The resurrection of the saints to life and the rest to a resurrection where life isn't given yet. To have life is to have the right to life and mankind haven't that right now.

The 'Lazarus in hell' story is ofcause annoying. You can be sure hellpriests know that one. I feel however that Jesus wanted to illustrate how the Jews died as Gods chosen predestinated people to Zions priesthood and also notice that the the poor is rewarded and the rich punishment solely out of a sense of justice, not faith. It's clearly addressed to the Jewish people.

The resurrection is the hope for all mankind, including those that died in the waters in the days of Noah and those that die during the terible day of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:14 - For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.

1 John 2:2 - and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Genesis 22:17 - I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

We believe Jesus died for all and we believe, unlike evangelists, that because of satans power, men normally can't make themselves unworthy of resurrection of judgment. We are basically all victims of satan and in revelations chapter 20, we see that satan is bound for 1.000 years, simply to allow people to be judged for their own sin (jeremiah 31:18-20). We see the judgment as a testing for men, where they will be tested by the saints and Jesus in order to see if they are worthy of life. We believe the common look of the judgment is a farce. Jesus points out that we are judged according to works and in most churches they teach that if you have believed in Jesus in your earthly life, you go to eternal life and if not, you go to eternal hell. That's a ridiculous look on the judgment. We look at God as fair and just. We believe the judgment is described in revelations 20 and a false look on death and the soul, make people unable to understand that chapter. We are all death, if we have not received life, death is in our veins, we inherit death. The passages with Martha and the resurrection of Lazarus shows that the Jews looked to the resurrection with hope just like it's often expressed in OT;

Psalms 80:18 - Then we will never turn back from thee; give us life, and we will call on thy name!

The saints are resurrected to life because of their works in this life, they are people that have given all to the Lord just like the apostles writings express. The church teaches that you just have to believe to go heaven and be a saint, the apostles works show something different, it's hard work, Paul describes his struggle with the fleesh in romans 7 for instance and 1 cor 6 teaches hard work too. We believe the rest whether they were good christians or evil people will be resurrected to judgment but ofcause not under the same conditions, nor will the requirements be as easy to meet for all:

Matthew 10:15 - Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor'rah than for that town.

Simply, we believe in a judgment where the endcome isnt given before it starts, like some medieval courtsystem.

We believe Sheol/Hades will be emptied. All the people that dies and have died are resting there.

1 Samuel 2:6 - The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Death will be no more after the 1.000 Years either, it will be gone along with those that did not meet the requirements in a fair trial.

Isaiah 65:19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying. 65:20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed. (ASV)

We really cant know who wont be resurrected, Jesus says to the Pharisees;

Matthew 23:33 - You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (ASV) (NB: Gehenna in Greek)

So there may be some that wont.

We know that does that die during the day of wrath will get a resurrection:

Zechariah 13:8 - In the whole land, says the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.

Revelations 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. (ASV)

lake of fire = 2nd death

I think we must differ between the resurrection of life (the saints, the heavenly hope, the 144.000, those that have share in the 1st resurrection in the kingdom of God) and the resurrection of judgment on earth. Matthew 7:14 and Ephesians 5:5 is about the resurrection of life. You wouldnt exactly describe the mere belief in Jesus Christ and wish to live morally as in Matt 7:14, that would honestly be an exageration. The ress of judgment is without liferight (various levels ofcause depending on how that person lifed his first life) but liferight is offered and must be obtained in order to avoid going to 2nd death (Rev 20:15, 2 Thess 1:9). All will be aware of the Gospel and the gospel being the truth, as the resurrection and the kingdom of God will be a reality to all unlike today where it's a testimony of belief (Matt 24:14), where the high calling to sainthood is offered exclusively in this life.
I don't know Jeff Priddy. Got a link?
Yes such viewpoints are different compared to what many have been told. To me, the common teaching is extremely unfair and unlogic; go to heaven if you believe, you are saved by your belief because we all fail and if you dont believe or havent heard, eternal torment in hell. I dont find it biblical either. Some even think that it's Gods will whether each person believe or not. They think the predestination and the peculiar people zelous of works are regarding all believers instead of the saints only.
The scenario of the millenium reign is that satan is removed. Jesus and the saints reign, not satan!, and people are judged (Matt 25:31-46, sheeps and goats). We definetly havent all the details on this. Most millenists dont believe all will be resurrected at the same time, and not all will be in activity all 1.000 years. There will be sin in this realm and people will die if they sin unforgivable (Ezkiel 18:20, Jeremiah 31:18-20, Isaiah 65:20). After the 1.000 years, satan will be loosened and go out to tempt people. Those that follow him have shown themselves totally unworthy of mercy and they will die. People that die after they have been resurrected will not be resurrected once again ("Jesus only died once"). Life without satan will surely be a VIP life. Jesus and the saints will be in charge, not men.
The saints have share in divine nature and are like angels. After satan has been finally destroyed God himself comes down to earth to judge everyone and after that heaven will come down to earth so to speak. All men existing then will be approved and God will live among them, the saints will still have a special status, part in divine nature, other men wont have that.

Like I said earlier, the OT teaches not of an immortal soul and it doesnt teach of burning hell either. It teaches that we are one, very mortal and it teaches that we inherit sin. When we die we have paid our dues to God, but only in this life we have the posibility of becoming saints. We are put to rest in the realm of death, Sheol, we perish in the eyes of man while to God, we are generally all alive (Matt 22:32). There's no basis for afterlife punishment at all. Unlike in the Quaran, no afterlife torment is described. There's no immortal soul that's in danger of life eternal without God. In Amos 9:2 we even see the describtion that if someone goes down Sheol in order to escape Gods anger, he brings them back, ie there's peace in Sheol, Psalm 6:5 says there's no rememberence in Sheol. How disgusting that babylonian christendom tell another story! When you know that the soul is mortal you see Jesus' parables (!) about 'hellfire' in another light. Yes Jesus comes into the picture, his blood pays the sin of Adam;

2 Corinthians 5:14 - For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.

1 John 2:2 - and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

By this he releases men from Sheol. Perhaps the biggest crime of the catholic and protestant churches is that they have kept people in the dark about the resurrection, Martha knew of it (John 11). The OT prophets tell of it, ie Ezekiel 37. There are two kinds of resurrection, a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment. Matt 5:25-29 and Revelations 20 details this. To be resurrected to life means to have the right to life, not to walk around seeming alive. We are all dying. Mankind lost the liferight in Genesis 3, they were banned from Eden and the tree of life they would favour to eat of after eating of the tree of knowledge. The saints (those that die in Christ, follow in his footsteps, ie. sacrifice their life to Gods kingdom) will be resurrected to life, the rest to judgment on earth, the saints judgment in the millenium reign Rev 20, they are still death is aspect of liferight and ofcause their judgment will be differ in how they behaved and whether they believed.

Matthew 10:15 - Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor'rah than for that town.

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and
what does the LORD require of you but to do justice,
and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your
God?

After the thousand years there will no more be people that disobey God. They will be executed to death without resurrection, Sheol, the container of 1st death will be gone. There will be a new heaven and earth and heaven will come down to earth, God and the saints will live among the approved earthlings eternally. Just to explain where I come from, how fundamental differently you and I believe. The billions will be awaked from the deathsleep, none are in torment in hell. To believe God torments people in hell is horible, to call God love or just would be a farce and satan is the inventor of that teaching.

It's true the the sheeps/goats parable is after the resurrection and the judgment.

Matt 25:33and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Sheeps are mild and easy to work with, goats stubborn. These are the people that fail in the judgment. God want obedient children. They go to eternal punishment which is death without resurrection. Death today is with resurrection. Both Sheol/Hades, the container of 1st death, death itself and wicked people will be gone. There will only be good people left that are deliberated from death.

'Thus, if we believe that we enter eternal life, conscious and in the presence of God, then we MUST believe that the unjust go into eternal punishment, conscious and separated from God. There is no getting around it. Something for you to think about and look at.'
- here you are assuming based on your belief in the immortal soul. I know protestants say; the opposite of eternal happiness is eternal unhappiness, I say in accordiance with the Bible, the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, we are one not two. It's indeed a punishment to be removed from life eternal in paradise and perish. Today we live in temporary punishment (of 1st death, the inherited sin of Adam). The wicked have not immortality (take a look at Romans 2:7-9), it's a reward and the soul is mortal, the wicked have no eternal consciousness. The wicked will perish, the punishment of the soul is death.

Matt 10:28And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Body meaning the mere flesh, soul the mind. So therefor, the wicked perish meaning they die, they are destroyed and God has forgotten them, into Gehenna/Lake of fire which is 2nd death as rev itself explains. God isnt a God that is evil and torments people eternally. To say that eternal torment would be just nomatter how you look at it is nonsense. The Bible teach no such philosophies. I see it as a Godgiven task for me to show people that the Bible tells this. I see how many protestants struggle with these issues and cant believe God is like their church says and they need a helping hand to come to understandinig. The Bible tells another story and people deserve to be brought to insight on this. Then afterwards they can make up their mind whether they will choose to listen to the Bible or to the countless of other sources backing up the serpents tales. They are filled with ackward interpretations of Gods plans, they think God died on the cross to select people to be saved from his eternal justly tormentchamber. They are kept in the dark with the fact that God allowed Adam to sin. God knows all, past, present future. He wants men that have the ability to sin but the experience, nature and Godmind to do good. Good men need to understand that the Bible tells God is good. He can get very angry as we see in the OT but he doesnt torment anybody eternally. People need to understand that even the Sodomites will be resurrected to judgment. They are not in hell burning now nor will they be resurrected just to be sent to another eternal hell. I accept the Bible only and place no value on any other religious scriptures.

Gód Bless

Rev BII

Jesus knew the soul is mortal just like David did :-).

Genesis 3:22And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever- 3:23therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Psalms 6:5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee thanks?

Matt 10:28And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 2:6who will render to every man according to his works: 2:7to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 2:8but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 2:9tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 2:10but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

Ezekiel 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jesus taught about the danger of going to 2nd death in the judgment. A judgment is a trial, not a given verdict and that trial goes on in Rev 20. babylon spread the rumour that there's no trial. If you believed in Jesus in your earthly life you go to heaven, if not you go to hell, they say. The truth is different. Jesus bought free the captives of sheol to resurrection and judgment and people will be judged according to their works in the millenium reign.

Matt 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.

All that believe will not be put to shame but they wont go to heaven just because they believe.

What did Jesus really speak of here;

Mark 9:43And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. 9:44where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:45And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell. 9:46where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:47And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; 9:48where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire. 9:50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost its saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace one with another.

reminds me a bit of;

Isaiah 66:24And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelations 20:14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 20:15And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Reminds me a bit of a symbol for eternal punishment called eternal death, the opposite of eternal life.

God Bless

Julie

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that we get one life, no immortality, and all these people wasted their whole lives fighting about who was right or wrong about the details of an immortality that doesn't exist?

A fan of irony,
Julie

Billygoat

Julie - great point! I've wondered it myself!

Andi

LittleToe

The bottom line is:
It's all very simple really...

Free Justification by grace.

But that's not where the story ends...
Sanctification by effort, hence a struggle of flesh verses spirit.

Now predestination and freewill - there's a subject to argue about.
Who wants to take the Calvinist side, and who want's to take the Arminian side?

PS. Anyone else fed up of three pages of quotations?
What's wrong with being simply stated?

ElijahTheThird

It seems very clear, that those that go to the "heavens" must go for a purpose dosn't it? Chosen for certain qualities of integrity and charector of the "heart" for what they will do. As many have figured out, the "harvest" of Anointed is much larger than just the "first fruits". There are many with this calling both in and out of the JW's. Yet they are the ones that really started up the gathering of the Saints.

Who goes to heaven?

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