by RR 26 Replies latest jw friends
Makes a lot of sense Joel. Who better to help mankind then those from among mankind. What do angels and men have in common? They were never humans, they were never sinners in need of a savior.
That's like having a virgin explain sex education
____________________________
"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
I think Joelbear asked an excellent question here. He asked:
Why did god put people on earth to begin with if he was just going to end up taking some to heaven?
In other words, if *some* of mankind are destined to live forever in Heaven, why did God put ANYONE here on earth to begin with? Why didn't God simply make Heaven everyone's home, and dispense with this EARTHLY existence altogether? I think that Joelbear's question helps to make clear the fact that the idea about going to heaven as entertained both by Christendom and the WTS is problematic.
Christendom believes that ALL the "saved" will go to Heaven to forever live with God. This is an error of course because her scenario eventually dispenses with the earth.
The WTS believes that a certain number will go to Heaven to forever live with God. There is an error here too … not the idea that only a comparatively few will go to heaven, but that those who do so will stay there FOREVER. Which doesn't make a lot of sense! Why? Because if the abode of *some* from among mankind can be transferred to Heaven, then why not ALL of them. Hence, the question arises again: Why didn't God simply make Heaven everyone's home to begin with, and dispense with this earthly existence altogether.
Of course I personally have argued for quite some time now that the 144,000 who do go to Heaven, in order to rule alongside Christ for the 1000 years, are going to be there for ONLY that long of a period ... 1000 years total. This DOES make sense, and answers the question that Joelbear has posed. But most importantly this is what the Bible REALLY teaches. How so? Look at the Revelation account. Notice: The 20th chapter ends with the 1000-year reign of Christ having concluded. The 21st chapter begins with Christ's bride, New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven. Coming down out of Heaven and going to where? Returning to earth of course. So after they have finished their work in Heaven the 144,000 will be on their way back to earth to live once again as humans. MAKES SENSE! Hence, this proves that nothing has been permanently changed from the way God originally made everything: God made spirit creatures (angels) to live in a spiritual abode (Heaven), and he made fleshly creatures (mankind) to live in a material abode (earth). At the end of the 1000 years only angels and God himself will occupy the spirit realm, Heaven; and those men who were born here at earth will have returned to their original abode, the earth. In the end, nobody from earth that ever went to Heaven will have remained there.
So, I've demonstrated that those who DO go to Heaven are not bound to forever remain there. And this solves the mystery of it all, as well as answers the question that Joelbear brings to the table.
aChristian
You said:
Since heaven and earth as we now know them will then no longer even exist,No longer exist? In what sense? Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? That's what you appear to be saying. If that's the case, then you are greatly mistaken my man!
Too, with regards to you saying: "heaven as we know it". Would you care to explain exactly how it is that WE humans "know" Heaven. We've never been there. We've never seen pictures of Heaven. We've never heard any explanation of what it's like there. So how is it that we "know it", as you say?
Yadirf
PS> Isn't it interesting to consider: If Adam had never sinned in the first place there would've been absolutely no necessity for anyone going to Heaven. This would mean that those 144,000 would've forever HAD to be content with an earthly existence. Right? RIGHT!!! The discussion in progress here in this thread has lent itself real, REAL well towards proving my contention that the 144,000 -- once they've finished their tenure in Heaven as kings and priests with Christ -- they will return to earth to resume their lives as the HUMANS they were always meant to be.
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
"Heaven and earth will pass away." - Jesus Christ - (Matthew 24:35)
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." (Rev. 21:1)
Friday,
Your theology and that of the JWs is contrary to scripture and to science. Both tell us that nothing physical will last forever. If God does not bring an end to our physical planet and our physical bodies at the end of the Millennium, as the scriptures indicate he will, the earth's sun will certainly do so when it explodes, as all stars eventually do.
Christendom believes that ALL the "saved" will go to Heaven to forever live with God. This is an error of course because her scenario eventually dispenses with the earth.
The traditional Christian undestanding is that there will be a new heavens and a new earth. For example, see the relevant section in the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#VI
Notice these sections (1046-1050. The paragraphs in quotes are from authoritative Church documents or Scripture:
1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
"For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay.... We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.
1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."
1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."
1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom." God will then be "all in all" in eternal life:
"True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life."
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For those who hold that the number 144,000 is literal:
If the number 144,000 is literal are the numbers 12 and 12,000 literal also? Are there literally 12 groups of 12,000 comprising the 144,000? Also, are there literally 12 gates in the New Jerusalem? Are the measurements 12,000 and 144 to be taken literally also? (From Rev. chapter 21) Doesn't consistency require we take the numbers all as literal or all as symbolic?
Revelation chapters 21 and 22 describe the final state when the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to earth. This is a uniting of heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth. The gates of the City are open for all. Notice Rev. 22:14-15:
"Happy are those who wash their robes clean! [Remember this is what the "great multitude" do--Rev. 7:14.] They shall be free to eat from the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the perverts, the sorcerers and fornicators, the murderers and idolaters, and all who love and practise deceit."
Two choices: being able to enter the City to eat of the tree of life or to be outside the City with the lost. There are not two hopes for Christians...only "one hope" (Ephesians 4:4).
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
Sorry to have returned and edited my post so many, many times. I think that I've finally got it like I want it. Don't worry, it still bears at least some resemblence to its original.
Yadirf,
who wonders how many's left
of his 25 per day allotment.
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
aChristian
The scriptures you site (in Matthew and Revelation) do NOT mean what you attempt to derive from them. Too, you surely seem to place an excessive amount of faith in what “science” claims will happen to our sun. True, science, or rather I should say TRUE science, has impressed the world with some rather fabulous things. For example: I was absolutely flabbergasted when I was privileged to see what the planets in our solar system look like up relatively close, as was made possible by the use of space probes. Yes, that was a great accomplishment by SCIENCE and technology. However, scientists and technicians have about as much chance of knowing that our sun will “explode” as my puppy knows that his life will end someday. Get real, will you people! Stop buying all the crap that the “gods” of science and technology throw out at you. True, they have definitely learned some wonderful things. One thing though that they haven’t learned so good, is how to keep their feet on the ground and their heads out of the clouds. Don’t be fooled into accepting everything that’s claimed simply out of being over-awed by their impressive accomplishments.
Right now I’ve not the time to go into a discussion with you on how the “new heavens and earth” is to be properly understood. I will say though that this is the very subject that I have at the top of my agenda, to work up a document about and share it with the WTS. I plan to do that because not even they are correct about all the details. Once I’m finished, and have it on the way to the WTS, I will likely upload the information to my personal web site. If you wish, you can go there and look it over. I think that you’ll see something that you’ve never heard before.
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CatholicGuy
Thanks for providing the information you posted. But I don’t find it so very clear. I like information, but I hate having to dig through what a person quotes someone else as having said, all the while trying to decipher what you YOURSELF believe. I would’ve preferred that you simply said what YOU think, in your own words. Or at least summarized it all in your own words. So, if you would, in a nutshell, what do you think it all says in view of the question I asked aChristian? I asked: Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? Can you CLEARLY answer that question? In your opinion: Is our present earth one day going to no longer figure into things? Is it due to be eliminated? Destroyed? Do you think that there will be a “new earth” as the result of mankind having been rehabilitated? What say you, exactly?
Also, see the last paragraph in my comments to aChristian.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Thanks for providing the information you posted. But I don’t find it all that clear. I like information, but I hate having to dig through what a person quotes someone else as having said, trying to decipher what you YOURSELF believe.
I understand. I was trying to document that the traditional Christian understanding does not "dispense with the earth."
Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? Can you CLEARLY answer that question? In your opinion: Is our present earth one day going to no longer figure into things? Is it due to be eliminated? Destroyed? Do you think that there will be a “new earth” as the result of mankind having been rehabilitated? What say you, exactly?We don't have detailed answers. We don't know exactly how this will happen. The present heaven and earth will be transformed. How much of a continuity between the old heavens and old earth and the new heavens and the new earth there will be we don't know. It will be more than just a rehabilitation of mankind. Scripture indicates creation itself will be renewed.
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
CatholicGuy
My belief is that the only changes which our physical earth will undergo is that any damage which has resulted since Adam's rebellion (i.e. pollution etc.) will be overcome. Of course, the paradise conditions that would've been attained had Adam remained faithful to God's instruction regarding not eating from the tree will still be realized. What part of that do you not agree with?
Your words, as I've quoted them below, don't particularly seem to clash with my opinion of things.
The present heaven and earth will be transformed. How much of a continuity between the old heavens and old earth and the new heavens and the new earth there will be we don't know. It will be more than just a rehabilitation of mankind. Scripture indicates creation itself will be renewed.Nice chatting with you.
Thanks,
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
CatholicGuy
I'm still a bit curious about something you said. The words you used to express your thought, rather than being specific, were somewhat ambiguous. You asserted that "the traditional Christian understanding does not "dispense with the earth." Are you referencing a)the very earth we now live on? Or just b)the idea of some sort of an "earth" in general ... in reality then a different globe or planet called "earth"? If your answer is "b", I really find that hard to accept. In view of you saying that the traditional Christian understanding doesn't dispense with the earth, I must say that in all my many years of living on THIS "earth" I've seldom heard the churches talk about anything other than "going to heaven". Considering that there's going to be a new heavens and a new earth, and since all "Christians" are going to “heaven” -- then what's our PRESENT earth going to be used for? Or for that matter, if an entirely different earth, or globe were being referred to then what's THAT earth going to be used for if all the "saved" are going to inherit the new heaven, aka "Heaven"?
Really, isn’t the very opposite of what you’ve said the truth of the matter? Rather than the other way around, the traditional view of Christendom is indeed the dispensing of the “earth” since they rarely express any hope other than that of going home to "heaven”.
Interesting! No?
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Really, isn’t the very opposite of what you’ve said the truth of the matter? Rather than the other way around, the traditional view of Christendom is indeed the dispensing of the “earth” since they rarely express any hope other than that of going home to "heaven”.
That is exactly why I quoted and linked the material from the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_. As it says there, we don't know exactly how this will happen but it is our hope. Go back and read the link to see that I'm not just spouting out my own thoughts on this but this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Can't get more traditional than that! <g>
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
