What should upset you the most about high gas prices

by free2beme 47 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillbilly

  During the first embargo the Govt lowered speed limits, turned down thermostates and started underewriting energy audits and other things that would lessen demand.

  That was during a shortage that drove prices up. A manipulated shortage by OPEC. Demand went down, peopled protested with their wallets and just stopped buying and using as much fuel as they could ...OPEC got the memo.

  This is not a shortage.. it's a market manipulation. Overpricing is starting to lower demand in China (NPR Friday)... that interested me, as China's rising demand it one of the prime factors in the recent price increases.

  IF the sheep in the US would start cutting back using some of the ideas from the 70's we would see the market adjust.

  Supply and demand is a two way equation. Companies, Bush's pals and Arabian princes may set prices... but people control demand. Why are we waiting on government to tell us how to fix this? They helped once in the 70's with mandates... we could do that again.

  Hill
• 

  rekless

  The evironmental wackos caused most of the problems

  You can't drill here, no drilling there, no refineries, the rich Kennedys do not want wind terbines to corrupt their beach front view, Why should congress give a hoot, hell we pay for their fuel and everything else while they expect us to bend over and accept their it will be 10-20 years before any of these alternative energy get on line...so lets do nothing. same ole Bs that the idiots say today is what they said, 30 years ago.

  It's not only the politicians, but the green party, Global warming is a farce, but is being used to fatten the bank accounts of those who own companies that deal with carbon footprints offsets ( Al Gore ) 100 million dollar wind fall scam.
• 

  Robdar

  The evironmental wackos caused most of the problems

  You can't drill here, no drilling there, no refineries, the rich Kennedys do not want wind terbines to corrupt their beach front view, Why should congress give a hoot, hell we pay for their fuel and everything else while they expect us to bend over and accept their it will be 10-20 years before any of these alternative energy get on line...so lets do nothing. same ole Bs that the idiots say today is what they said, 30 years ago.

  So, you're telling me that we should sh*t in own backyard just to lower fuel costs? Believe it or not, it's not just the rich folk who are against corrupting our beaches.

  The answer is simple and it's the same thing we did in the 70's: slow that gas hog down (or get rid of it); put on a sweater or layer your clothes; learn how to open your windows and use a fan, stop, think and plan your route; plant a garden; pick up groceries on your way home from work.... in other words: learn how to be more efficient
• 

  Mincan

  tsk..tsk..shame on you! What do you mean the government is doing nothing???

  Didn't they just take over the IndyMac bank on Friday? Didn't they bail out Bear Sterns? Aren't they about to bail out or take over Freddie Mac and Fannie May? LOL...didn't they sign a good FISA bill? Oil? What problem with oil? The oil companies have thousands upon thousands of leases they don't even use and pay virtually nothing to the American people for - here's a novel idea. If they aren't going to use those land leases for all the oil they say isn't there = then give them up or tax them heavily. Force them to either open the wells up that are there or force them to hand back the land and let the taxpaying owner of the land decide what to do with them. Peak oil is only easy oil. I'm not upset about it at all - I don't like it, I think its all manipulation and I think it's pushing the world into a global depression which will only subsequently result in death or tragedy for those who can least afford to resist it.

  Oil is just one part of all the mess, the financial industry is another. There are 92 banks on the watch list but nobody has the government watch list because they don't want another run on the banks.

  I'm going out to enjoy the day - driving down to get some groceries and take in a movie - fill up the car while I'm out - think about planning a road trip. Why not? As quick as I replace those energy saving lights, more coal fired plants are being run in China so whilel they work on a plan to reduce their emissions over the next 30 years to catch up to the rest of the world, I think I'll live the best I can.

  sammieswife.

  sammieswife, good points about the gov't trying to bail out the banks (while not helping to bail out the common mortgage holder). However, if you take the idea that the gov't doesn't want the economy to tank (because well they want us to keep sending all we got their way) I wonder how you think that the gov't has all this hidden oil they aren't showing. For one, the gov't isnt in direct control of oil discoveries... that's a private enterprise. Oil companies that want to icnrease production have to report higher reserves, this OPEC did in the 1980 when overnight many of their constituents recorded doubling reserves to be able to produce more on an annual basis.

  Economics is not a hard science, its a fantasy based endeavour hardly based in solid reality (speculation markets anyone?). Oil Well Physics is what we are concerned with. Yes the easy and cheap stuff is gone, which means we now mine in Alberta... mining is expensive, and only became economically feasible after oil breeched 60 dollars a barrel. With less energy and money to go around, it becomes a negative feedback loop of corporations simply sitting on their profits. Why do oil companies not spend anything on exploration anymore? Is it because they've found everything and to spend more is pointless?

  Wouldn't worry too much about China, they experience rolling blackouts and sometimes 30% of the factories aren't running at any given time. They are suffering major coal shortages which are responsible for said blackouts. With an economy that's growing EXPONENTIALLY at 7-8% a year, their economy will double in a few short years... unfortunately economics will have to pay homage to physics, as does everything, and the paradigm of infinite growth will hit the wall of finite earth.

  If people simply understood the exponential function, population and other means of growth would be more seriously discussed. We've already drilled and used up half of the oil we've found, 1 trillion barrels, since 1859. If we are to double our energy needs by 2030 WHICH WE HAVE TO DO if we want to continue to have an economy that grows at 1-2% a year, that means we will have to produce nad burn the last remaining 1 trillion barrels of oil in 22 years. Oil Well physics dont work like that. Once the pressure subsides, you have to pump in natural gas or water if you got none to keep the pressure up, lowering the rate and ultimately recoverable oil and increasing refining costs... its a relentless decline of the Energy Returned on Energy Invested, or ERoEI, a simply idea not too many people consider when coming up with "solutions" to our energy "needs".
• 

  hillbilly

  You can't drill here, no drilling there, no refineries, the rich Kennedys do not want wind terbines to corrupt their beach front view, Why should congress give a hoot, hell we pay for their fuel and everything else while they expect us to bend over and accept their it will be 10-20 years before any of these alternative energy get on line...so lets do nothing. same ole Bs that the idiots say today is what they said, 30 years ago. -Reckless

  "Not in My Backyard" syndrome has caused 50% of the total problem for energy production. What really drives me nuts is when a guy in Conneticut or whatever does not want a wind farm in my backyard. We have several in OK and they are kinda cool.

  My next house will have a small wind turbine...some solar panels and several passive energy tricks in place. I hope the cattle and neighbors dont mind a newfangled windmill instead of that old dustbowl version that ran the water pump. That stuff and a good geothermal loop (ie... dig ditch with backhoe and add a coil in the furnace).

  We have had all this "technology" around for a long time. HOME Builders dont push it...no margin. And Buyers dont insist on it. The Govt doesnt reward it. I doesnt happen. Electric distribution companies used to push energy alternatives ... for them it's cheaper to reduce demand than build capacity... but the govt pulled out subsidies a few years ago so a lot of the consumer programs dried up.

  If a wind farm is ever taken out of service it look like it would be much easier to "restore" the area to "pristine" than the effort it takes to dismantel a fossil or nuke powerhouse or coal mine or whatever we have built in the past.

  Drilling oil ... a horsehead pump or two in the area gets pretty transparent after a while...kinda like highline towers...you dont notice em at all.

  If Canada, Europe and the States dont want oil rigs on the beach... let's get them to push the alternatives.

  Hill
• 

  donny

  What chaps me the most is that this current huge spike in prices is caused by investor speculation and not by the supply. All just to make a buck.
• 

  poppers

  When gas approached $2 a gallon I changed my driving habits - I drive my 30mpg car once a week and use a bike whenever feasible because I was basically forced to by my financial situation. Meanwhile, Governor Schwarzenegger has a personal fleet of 10 mpg Hummers because he can afford it. In effect he is saying "screw those who can't afford to put gas in their car, I can." What ego! There is a moral issue in this that is being ignored by the rich and powerful. To deliberately and unnecessarily squander a limited resource isn't just criminal it is morally reprehensible.
• 

  Mincan

  What chaps me the most is that this current huge spike in prices is caused by investor speculation and not by the supply. All just to make a buck.

  Source please?

  All the data I see show that over 50 countries are physically producing less oil now than in the past... past their "hubbert's peak" to give it a name. Not because they don't want to, you can't sell me that. Their economies and governments do all they can to ensure a steady supply. Look at Sudan, the northern government is displacing all those people in the south so that they "own" the discoveries that have been found there.

  Here's an interesting statistic: If you want to keep up with the demand thats ever marching upwards while our supply flattens out and drops, you will need to raise production by 200 million barrels a day by 2020. This will be because most new production will have to offset the currently declining extraction rates of virtually every current exporting nation. (world uses around 85 million barrels a day now and is expected to "want" (i.e. demand) 120 million barrels a day by 2020). This is impossible, as all middle eastern countries are fighting just to stay at their current rates... Saudi Arabia is at 12 million BPD, and they are saying thats all to expect.
• 

  donny

  Source please?

  In May 2008, Uwe Beckmeyer, transport chief for Germany's Social Democrats, said a recent 25 percent rise in the price of oil to $135 a barrel had nothing to do with underlying supply and demand; "It's pure speculation," he said.[Germany in call for ban on oil speculation", The Daily Telegraph . 2008-06-07 .

  Also in May 2008, The Economist pointed out that "The number of transactions involving oil futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX), the biggest market for oil, has almost tripled since 2004. That neatly mirrors a tripling of the price of oil over the same period."[Double, double, oil and trouble", The Economist (2008-05-29) . 2008-06-17.

  Also in May 2008, hedge fund manager Michael Masters testified to a U.S. Senate committee about his belief that "What we are experiencing is a demand shock coming from a new category of participant in the commodities futures markets: Institutional Investors... In the popular press the explanation given most often for rising oil prices is the increased demand for oil from China. According to the DOE, annual Chinese demand for petroleum has increased over the last five years from 1.88 billion barrels to 2.8 billion barrels, an increase of 920 million barrels. Over the same five-year period, Index Speculators' demand for petroleum futures has increased by 848 million barrels. The increase in demand from Index Speculators is almost equal to the increase in demand from China!"Michael Masters Written Testimony", United States Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs . 2008-05-28 .

  In June 2008, The Wall Street Journal wrote: "Lehman Brothers cites evidence that institutional investors, including sovereign-wealth funds, have been increasing their exposure to commodities. The investment house calculates that from January 2006 to mid-April 2008, more than $90 billion of incremental investor flows was devoted to assets under management by commodity indexes. It said for every $100 million in new inflows, the price of West Texas Intermediate, the U.S. benchmark, increased by 1.6%."Is Oil the Next 'Bubble' to Pop?", Wall Street Journal (2008-06-04) .

  Also in June 2008, analyst Theodore Butler wrote that the rise in prices since the credit crunch began in August 2007 was primarily due to short sellers buying back futures contracts so as to minimize their losses. "The index funds are holding the same size, or smaller, long position in crude oil than they held 10 months ago, when crude oil was $70/barrel... The buying back of previously sold short futures contracts, primarily in the commercial category, account for the bulk of the buying over the past eight months or so.""The Real Speculators" (2008-06-10) . Also in June 2008, OPEC's Secretary General Abdullah al-Badri provided statistics supporting rampant speculation in the oil-related financial markets. According to Badri, current world consumption of oil at 87 million bpd is far exceeded by the "paper market" for oil, which equals about 1.36 billion bpd, or more than 15 times the actual market demand.OPEC chief appeals for calm over oil", Reuters (2008-06-10) .

  On June 17, 2008, Iranian OPEC governor Mohammad-Ali Khatibi described the oil market as saturated and warned that an increase in production from Saudi Arabia would be "wrong". Refiners stated that it is Saudi Arabia's traditionally high prices which make its crude noncompetitive. Prior to this, OPEC had stated that the oil market was well supplied and that high prices were a result of speculation and a weak U.S. dollar. Riyadh's crude output decision, wrongPresstv.ir

  I am not saying that there is no concern over supply as logic tells you that we are using an energy source that has a finite supply and yes, China and India's growth is having an effect, but that does not explain the cost of a barrel of oil increasing almost 4 fold in just 18 months. I have money invested in oil stocks and while I am happy with that portion of my investment portfolio, I have to admit it's way out of proportion to reality..
• 

  Mincan

  Buddy, you are quoted economic journals, as I said economics is not a hard science... where is the data? I dont care about someone's opinions that are not based on oil well physics, that's all that matters when we are talking about a resource in the ground, not the speculation of people trying to make money off said resource.

  Wow, nice graphic, I didn't know gas prices have increased in the past few years...