Jesus our Mediator

by TooBad TooSad 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TooBad TooSad
    TooBad TooSad

    Can someone please give me the link to the discussion that we had

    that proves that the WTBTS teaches that only the 144,000 have

    Jesus as their Mediator. I told this to one of my Witness friends

    and he told me that is not true.

    Thanks,

    TooBad TooSad

  • wifekeepsmeinit
    wifekeepsmeinit

    I beleive it was in a 1979 WT mag, and how our prayers are to go through the FS.

    I pretty sure this teaching has changed and we are not to pray to the FS.

    Heres a link to it. http://www.jwfiles.com/mediator.htm

  • LouBelle
    LouBelle

    I must say my brain is rusty on some of the doctrines. Jesus does mediate on the rank and files behalf too doesn't he? That is way they still have to pray through Jesus Christ. . . or is it that he takes pity on those associated to the little flock so as an act of good will he mediates for us....

  • WingCommander
    WingCommander

    I don't know all of the documentation, but the doctrine is basically this:

    The New Covenant that Jesus set up and died for was ONLY with the 144,000 annointed. Mankind can only be saved, resurrected, make it into the New System by being ALIGNED, or associated with, the 144,000 annointed, who are bridesmaids with Christ. Only by being aligned with the WTBS, the F&DS, etc do you have any hope of everlasting life on paradise earth. Therefore, Jesus IS NOT the mediator for mankind, but only the 144,000. This is also why it was stated in several articles, and also repeated on here, that the Bible was written for only the 144,000 annointed, and only they can interpret scripture. Hence, the only good spiritual food being delivered today comes from the Faithful and Discreet Slave. All other food being distributed is from Babylon the Great, Satan's evil slave class.

    This makes sense in WT land when you think about it. The baptismal vows changed in 1984-1985 to reflect this, and also only the 144,000 are allowed to partake in the communion of Christ. You are batpized in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit-Directed Organization. Does the Bible support this? Hell no. No where does Jesus state that he only came for a certain heavenly class, John Class, etc. No where does he talk of two seperate hopes.

    I'm sure Blondie can pop in here and back up what I've just said with full WT material quotes, dates, etc. I'm pretty sure I got it right though.

    - Wing Commander

  • sacolton
    sacolton

      "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" pp. 10-11If Jesus is only mediator for the few thousand remaining remnant on earth, who is mediator for the millions of Jehovah's Witnesses that do not form part of the 144,000?
        "Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians? … So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians. …The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant." Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31

        "They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."-1 Pet. 2:9. 24 Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.-Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. 25 To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"
                Where is Jesus in that statement? Most congregations no longer have any of the "little flock" to associate with and the reality for a Jehovah's Witnesses is that salvation comes from following the Governing Body, the leaders of the Organization. Jesus role as mediator for the anointed alone underpins the concept that following the directions of a "Faithful and Discreet Slave" is necessary for salvation.

                What the Bible Says

                The underlying Watchtower reason for Jesus mediating only for the Anointed is that the New Covenant is said to only apply to the 144,000. Is this what the Bible says?

                The Law Covenant foreshadowed the New Covenant. It was established in order for the nation of Israel to have their sins forgiven, and required Moses as Mediator and a High Priest to offer atonement. It was not limited to Priests; it covered the sins of all the nation of Israelites and also could include the Alien resident.

                Exodus 19:6 "And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
                  "The terms of the Law covenant allowed for persons of all national backgrounds to come into membership of the congregation of Israel by accepting the true worship of Jehovah and becoming circumcised … The alien resident who had become a circumcised worshiper was bound to one law with the Israelites, that is, to obey all the terms of the Law covenant." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p.72 Alien Resident
                The Law Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant for forgiveness of sins.
                  "Jehovah provided Jesus Christ as the perfect sacrifice to take away sins. This is a specific provision of the "new covenant."" Watchtower 1980 November 1 p.31
                As with the Law Covenant, the New Covenant is a requirement for forgiveness of sins and is open to all. Being better than the Law Covenant the New Covenant makes possible and is necessary for everlasting life.

                The following scriptures discuss the requirement for all to have forgiveness of sins and make no mention that the covenant is limited to just the priests but is available to all.
                    Acts 13:38-39 "Let it therefore be known to YOU, brothers, that through this One a forgiveness of sins is being published to YOU; 39 and that from all the things from which YOU could not be declared guiltless by means of the law of Moses, everyone who believes is declared guiltless by means of this One."

                    Hebrews 9:15, 28 "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, … 28so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation."

                    Romans 3:21-30 "But now apart from law God's righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22 yes, God's righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. … 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also…"

                    Ephesians 1:7 "By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness."

                    Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."

                    Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."

                    Hebrews 8:10-12 "'For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. 11 "'And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: "Know Jehovah!" For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.'"
                  By Watchtower definition a mediator is "One who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them; an intercessor; an intermediary agent, or go-between. In the Scriptures the term is applied to Moses and Jesus, the mediators respectively of the Law Covenant and the New Covenant." (it-2 p. 360) Matthew 26:27-28 states that forgiveness of sins comes from the New Covenant;
                      "Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."
                    Jesus mediates on behalf of all humankind because the new covenant exists for "forgiveness of sins". Jesus is Mediator and High Priest of the New Covenant. All people can avail themselves of forgiveness of sins through the new Covenant and thus have Jesus as their Mediator and High Priest. The New Covenant can only be applied to mankind by Jesus, not by any other humans. (1 Tim 2:5) Watchtower View The Watchtower contains an inconsistent view of the mediator. Christians generally believe that Jesus sacrifice for forgiveness of sins is offered to all mankind, and comes from his role as both Mediator and High Priest of the New Covenant. However the Watchtower view is quite unique in that it separates Jesus role for different classes;
                    • Mediator only for the 144,000
                    • High Priest on behalf of all
                      "He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. …The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.362 Mediator
                    The Watchtower states that whilst Jesus is mediator for 144,000 only, those not under the new covenant will be blessed by Jesus through his role as their High Priest.
                      Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.362 Mediator "Blessings to Mankind in General. While Jesus' mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant, he is also God's High Priest and the Seed of Abraham. In fulfilling his duties in these latter two positions, he will bring blessings to others of mankind, for all the nations are to be blessed by means of Abraham's seed."

                      Watchtower 1991 February 15 p.18 "Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.)"
                    There is no scriptural precedent to support the idea that the Mediator can be for a different group than that of the High Priest, or that the High Priest atoned for people not under covenant.

                    If the 144,000 are supposed to prefigure the kings and priests and also prefigure the entire nation of spiritual Israel, then who are they to rule?

                    The Watchtower parallels the Great Crowd with the Alien residents under the Law covenant.
                      "Since a number of these faithful foreigners, or alien residents, are viewed as foreshadowing the great crowd today, their situation is of interest to us. 13 Such ones were proselytes, dedicated worshipers of Jehovah under the Mosaic Law who were separated from the nations along with the Israelites. (Leviticus 24:22) They offered sacrifices, kept clear of false worship, and abstained from blood, just as the Israelites did." Watchtower 1995 July 1 p.17 "The Israel of God" and the "Great Crowd"
                    As the Great Crowd are said to be foreshadowed by the alien resident then it follows that the Great Crowd are included in the New Covenant in the same way alien residents were included in the Law Covenant.

                    History of this Doctrine

                    Why does the Watchtower claim Jesus is only Mediator for the 144,000? The history of the development of this concept provides the answer. The Watchtower did not always teach this distasteful doctrine. Russell taught that the role of Mediator was extended to all mankind.

                    Russell appears to have been thoroughly confused about the role of mediator. At times he felt that the 144,000 were not under the new covenant, did not need a mediator and that they (along with Jesus) played role of mediator for mankind. However this teaching changed back and forth.
                    • 1880 Jesus and the body of Christ (the 144,000) mediated for mankind, so the 144,000 were not included in the New Covenant. "Nor is the "new covenant" made with the church at all"
                    • 1881 The Church is included in the New Covenant (Zion's Watch Tower 1881 September p.151)
                    Zion's Watch Tower 1907 January returned to the 1880 teaching. As described in Watch Tower 1909 January p.12
                      "It was very inconsistent for us to quote in one breath the Apostle's statement that we are members of the Isaac Seed, the children of the old, original Covenant, and then in the next breath to class ourselves as beneficiaries of the New Covenant."
                    At least Russell believed Jesus role of mediator was for all mankind.
                      "Jesus will occupy this mediatorial relationship between God and men until he shall have accomplished fully the intended work-until he shall have brought back into full harmony with God every creature who, being brought to a knowledge of his Creator and his righteous laws, shall desire to be and to do in complete harmony therewith." Studies in the Scriptures, Series VI - The New Creation p.398
                    To coincide with his moving the Great Crowd from heaven to earth Rutherford made an almost opposite claim that the New Covenant only applied to the 144,000. In 1934 Rutherford limited who Jesus could mediate for to just the 144,000 Spiritual Israelites.
                      "Christ Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant toward his own brethren, that is to say, spiritual Israel, during the period of time God is taking out from the nations a people for his name." Watchtower 1934 April 1 p.104
                    It was during this period that Rutherford introduced the concept that only 144,000 go to heaven. The Watchtower was forced into the position of limiting the new covenant to the 144,000 because the Bible states that those under the covenant receive a heavenly resurrection.
                      Hebrews 10:16-22 "'This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,'" 17 [it says afterwards:] "And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore." 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.. . .

                      1 Corinthians 15:51-57 "We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. … 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law."
                    Being determined to prove that only 144,000 go to heaven the Watchtower had no alternative than say that the New Covenant only applies to the 144,000. The Watchtower removed Jesus from being mankind's Mediator in order to support an inaccurate doctrine, that of an earthly resurrection. There is not a single scripture that discusses an earthly resurrection.

                    The introduction of these teachings was a critical turning point for the Watchtower Society. Even as the number of Jehovah's Witnesses grew over 144,000 Rutherford could have continued with Russell's teaching, allowing additional followers to be part of a heavenly Great Crowd. By sending the Great Crowd to earth and allowing only Jehovah's Witnesses to be part of it Rutherford was able to introduce the concept of narrow salvation. Russell's idea that the majority of mankind were to survive Armageddon could be extinguished. Salvation became dependant solely on belonging to the Watchtower Society. This use of control has continued ever since.

                    From that time forward the leaders of the Watchtower Society, as part of Spiritual Israel, could demand unquestioning obedience from the secondary class of other sheep.
                      "All of this should impress upon the minds of the other sheep why the Christian Greek Scriptures focus so much attention on Christ and his anointed brothers and their central role in the outworking of Jehovah's purposes. The other sheep therefore consider it a privilege to support in every way possible the anointed slave class while awaiting "the revealing of the sons of God" at Armageddon and during the Millennium. They can look forward to being "set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:19-21." Watchtower 2002 February 1 p. 23

                      "But that does not necessarily mean that they are marked for survival. They must be marked by the 'man with the secretary's inkhorn.' The facts show that "the faithful and discreet slave" class is doing that marking work today.-Matthew 24:45-47. 15 All who want to be marked as having God's approval must accept the instruction that Jehovah is providing through that "slave" class and become true worshipers of Jehovah." Survival into a New Earth p.96
                                    "Mystical manipulation can take on a special quality in these cults because the leaders become mediators for God. The God-centered principles can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation." Combating Cult Mind Control, Hasssan, p.202
                                  Lifton warned that the leaders of a cult invariably place themselves as mediators for God. The resultant conclusion of Watchtower doctrine is that the Governing Body have elevated their role to that of mediators themselves.
                                    "With Christ they make up the agency by means of which blessings will be extended to all other obedient ones among mankind. Appreciation of this is a key to understanding the Bible." Survival into a New Earth p. 65

                                    "Being made kings and priests by reason of the new covenant that he mediated, they will share in administering the blessings of Jesus' sacrifice and of his Kingdom rule to all the nations of the earth. Christ's mediatorship, having accomplished its purpose by bringing "the Israel of God" into this position, thus results in benefits and blessings to all mankind." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.363 Mediator

                                  Watchtower Style Reasoning

                                  The Watchtower Society uses an eisegesis approach to arrive at doctrine; that is, it creates a doctrine and then manipulates scriptures to support it. This requires resorting to rhetorical fallacy to convince people what they are saying is true.

                                  A classic example of this is in a 1989 article explaining why Jesus is not mediator for all mankind. Following are some quotes;
                                    "Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?

                                    The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study …

                                    To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ's "little flock," numbering 144,000. …

                                    Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.

                                    This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus' mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. …

                                    Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. … The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ's sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."

                                    Those of 'the whole world' are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. …" Watchtower 1989 August 15 pp.30-31
                                      The article starts by indicating this doctrine is solid food; that is, if you don't agree with or understand the conclusion you are spiritually immature. It then shows that in order to understand the role of the Mediator another Watchtower doctrine must be believed. However no scripture is given to back up the doctrine that humans will be resurrected onto earth, as there is no scripture that makes such a statement. In fact, when Revelation 7 discusses the Great Crowd it places them in heaven "before" the throne. (See Paradise Earth and Great Crowd) The doctrine of the Mediator is built upon this shaky foundation.

                                      The article attempts to gain weight by use of the word "clearly". It goes into a lengthy inclusion of Greek definitions, though they actually have no bearing on the existence of a secondary class. Then the writer claims to be privy to what "Timothy would have understood".

                                      Not content with limiting the mediatorship to only 144,000 people, the article finally slips in that the propitiatory sacrifice that is for the "whole world's" sins actually only applies to a few million people currently alive, the Great Crowd of Jehovah's Witnesses.

                                      Religions do not volunteer their most offensive doctrines to newcomers. Jesus mediatorship is an important and fundamental teaching of Christianity that is directly discussed in the Bible. Yet the word mediator does not appear at all in What Does the Bible Really Teach?; a primary teaching aid of Jehovah's Witnesses. In the Reasoning book the only mention of the mediator is in an unrelated manner that attempts to explain why we should not trust in Saints;
                                        "1 Tim. 2:5, JB: "There is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus." (There is no allowance here for others to serve in the role of mediator for the members of Christ's congregation.)" Reasoning From the Scriptures? p.184 par. 7

                                      Conclusion

                                      Jesus is mediator to all mankind. No man is our head; every man should answer only to Christ.
                                          1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ"
                                              There is no intermediary between us and Christ; Jesus is both our Mediator and High Priest.

                                              The Watchtower teaches that only 144,000 people make up the New Covenant, and that Jesus is mediator for them alone. Of the billions of people that have ever lived the New Covenant is only open to 144,000 people, around 50,000 of which lived in the first half on the 1900's.

                                              By saying that Jehovah's Witnesses can only have a relationship with their Saviour if they are united with the Slave Class, Rutherford transferred tremendous power to himself and the following leaders of the Watchtower Organization, effectively creating the structure necessary for (and indicative of) a cult. Bible
                                              "... one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." - 1 Timothy 2:5,6 Watchtower
                                              "So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." - Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31 Who is the mediator for Jehovah's Witnesses? Not Jesus! Though rarely mentioned, Jesus is not mediator to the Great Crowd of Jehovah's Witnesses or for the rest of mankind.
                                          • tfjw
                                            tfjw

                                            I believe this is based on an old doctrine from the original Society when it was taught that "The Christ" was a combination of Jesus AND the "Little Flock." The thought was that all mankind outside the "Little Flock" would be blessed in the future by "The Christ". "The Christ" was always described as "head and body" - but the "body" was basically limited to those who were of the "Elect" (144,000).

                                            Unless something has actually changed in WT doctrine since the late 1970's, according to the WTS, the "Great Crowd" is in need of mediation THROUGH the "Little Flock."

                                            It is the anointed, the Christ, head and body, selected and developed during the Gospel Age, which is to accomplish the great work here pointed out--the work of the resurrection, or restitution, in the next age, saying to the prisoners in death, "Go forth," and to those in the darkness or shadow of death, "Show yourselves." "Now," the Gospel Age now closing, has been the acceptable time for justified believers to offer themselves as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable unto God; because this age was specially set apart by God for the calling and development of this class of sacrificers whose sacrifices are now acceptable. (Zion's Watch Tower, page 858)
                                            Our thought is that The Christ will be very closely associated with the earth...The Christ will be very closely associated with the earth--as before intimated--though invisible to mortal eyes. They will be doing a good work, a powerful work on the spirit plane. They will be kings and priests unto our God, and they shall reign on the earth... With The Christ will be various agencies. The Great Company will undoubtedly be associated with them. Then there will be the earthly agents, just as Satan has his assistants. These agents of The Christ will be the faithful Ancient Worthies, who will render intelligent and willing service in the Kingdom of Messiah. (Zion's Watch Tower, pages 51, 52)
                                            The world is still opposed to the Christ of God, both head and body... (Zion's Watch Tower, page 143)
                                          • sacolton
                                            sacolton

                                            It's not old doctrine. It's still taught.

                                          • Perry
                                            Perry
                                            So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.

                                            I always heard the caveat "by extension" when the NT and Mediatorship of Christ was discussed. It applied to us "by extension". Meaning we were denied direct benefit of Jesus' .saving sacrifice. Of course this effectively replaced Jesus as Christ (or Savior) and made the WT leadership our Savior.... directly and not by extension.

                                            Jude 1:4
                                            For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
                                            Luke 21:8
                                            And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them

                                            Sigh...well, hind sight is 20/20. It would have been much easier to spot the wolf if they would have just come out and plainly said, "Hey, we're the Christ...follow us". They were too careful in word choices to do that.... but that's exactly what they said.

                                          • james_woods
                                            james_woods

                                            This was in fact one of the key debating points of the "great apostacy" of Bethel circa 1975 to 1981. The Watchtower itself during this era published study articles which were alternatively "hard line" or "soft line" on the issue back then.

                                            Eventually, of course, the hard line won out. But, it is such a radioactive subject with many witnesses that the WTS are forced to sugarcoat it in language such as was quoted above in this thread - "in a strict Biblical sense"...what other sense could there be? Are you hinting around that JC is "kind of your mediator in a manner of speaking, but not really"?

                                            The issue was, I believe, raised by the visionary reformers ( Ray, Ed, the others ) as a substitute for the much more divisive idea "144,000 is not literal". It does brilliantly lead to that conclusion, however. While many normal JW brainwash victims would argue until hell froze over that only 144,000 go to heaven, a lot of them (including loyalist elders I knew at the time) really got rattled at the idea that Jesus was technically not their mediator, and that they were not in the new covenant.

                                            This kind of issue really opens the floodgates on how much ridiculous speculative doctrine that the WTS has built over those two obscure 144,000 Revalation references over the years. Neither of the verses even remotely hints at what they have dreamed up about their sacred 144,000. It is now quite amusing to see that once again, they have painted themselves into a numerical corner over the fact that the remaining "144,000 remnant" are not dying out - in fact, their numbers seem to be at least holding steady if not increasing. Thus, subtle changes are now being made in the "time of sealing" of the remnant (not 1930s any more), generation, etc.

                                          • Perry
                                            Perry
                                            a lot of them (including loyalist elders I knew at the time) really got rattled at the idea that Jesus was technically not their mediator, and that they were not in the new covenant.

                                            After several years of shunning my mom and dad finally agreed see my wife and kids. Of course it turned into a lecture fest. My father can be very confrontational. Your statement above is what I fired at him a couple of times. He was shocked and flat out denied it in front of everyone. He claimed that Jesus was his mediator and savior. I told him that was not WT doctrine and that if he went around repeating it....he'd be disfellowshipped.

                                            My mother chuckled, but quickly regained her composure after a glare from dad.

                                            "Cake anyone?"

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