Catholic ex-JW's? Interpretation Questions for You.

by bavman 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bavman
    bavman

    In view of the much publicized conversion of Tom Cabeen on this website I thought I would ask a couple of questions.

    Do all Catholics interpret the scriptures literally or do they allow for metaphorical interpretation? Such as the miracles of Jesus or the Trinity understanding itself.

    I seem to see a difference between some believers and especially between certain traditions within the church itself. Also, between what some priests say and what some of the deep thinkers have written.

    Is there room for both views within the Catholic church?

    Also, is evolution compatible with Catholic belief?

    I look foward to hearing back from some of you.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    I'm allowed to celebrate the Eucharist even though I'm not baptized and live together unmarried. I don't know if this is the case in America too, but I think Christ's celebration should be open to all. Diversity and change are the strongest points of the RCC.

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Bav,

    You ask: "Do all Catholics interpret the scriptures literally or do they allow for metaphorical interpretation?"

    The Catholic Church does not have a specified scheme for interpreting the Scriptures. Some parts are literal, others metaphorical, others symbolic or allegorical, etc. Catholics believe that the correct way of interpreting the Old Testament was given to the apostles (compare Luke 24:27, 45) and passed down along with Scripture itself, included as a part of Sacred Tradition. The New Testament was written within the context of a fully functioning church, so it would have been understood perfectly by those who received it, and those understandings were also passed down. Nobody really questioned that perspective until the Reformation.

    Without some authoritative guide like to Scripture interpretation, you get exactly what you see among the Protestants: a multitude of attempts to get to "the real truth" without any way to authoritatively choose between them.

    In addition, Catholics believe that although the faith was complete by the end of the apostolic era, some passages of Scripture have multiple layers of meaning, which become clearer with time. Never does the new meaning replace the old, but rather supplements it. As an example, the text "out of Egypt I called my son" originally applied to the Exodus, but Matthew applies it to Jesus going down into Egypt. The new meaning did not replace, but rather supplemented the old. So rather than a "black and white" perspective, most Catholics who take an interest in this sort of thing have the "both...and" perspective. It means both this and that. Much of life is that way, anyway.

    "...Such as the miracles of Jesus or the Trinity understanding itself." I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first part. The miracles show that Christ had divine power, and helped substantiate his claims to be the true Son of God. They were really miracles, not just illusions.

    As for the understanding of the interrelationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the formal statement of the doctrine is was arrived a bishops in council. Their method is explained by Henry R. Percival:

    [begin quote] The question the Fathers considered was not what they supposed Holy Scripture might mean, nor what they, from a priori arguments, thought would be consistent with the mind of God, but something entirely different, to wit, what they had received. They understood their position to be that of witnesses, not that of exegetes. They recognized but one duty resting upon them in this respect — to hand down to other faithful men that good thing the Church had received according to the command of God. The first requirement was not learning, but honesty. The question they were called upon to answer was not, What do I think probable, or even certain, from Holy Scripture? but, What have I been taught, what has been entrusted to me to hand down to others?[end quote]

    "I seem to see a difference between some believers and especially between certain traditions within the church itself. Also, between what some priests say and what some of the deep thinkers have written."

    Amen, brother. Evidence convinced me that the Catholic Church has preserved the faith handed down by the apostles. I also believe that these teachings have been miraculously preserved, protected against the tendency of sinful humans to screw with things, and change them, inadvertently or on purpose.

    There are relatively few core teachings (dogmas) in the Catholic faith, only a handful, really. Bishops (or the apostles themselves) have defined them all.(The first example of that was when the bishops in Jerusalem affirmed in council that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised to be Christians.) Theologians have reasoned and enlarged on them, but no teaching of theologians is binding unless the bishops, in council, affirms it to be true, and those occasions are few and far between.

    Unlike the situation in the WTS, Catholics are, from a practical perspective, free to accept or reject Catholic teaching, for there is little or no enforcement as to believing them (or doing anything else the Church teaches, either.) Sadly, many Catholics, including clergy, do not study the teachings of the church, or if they do, they may reserve the right to either believe and act on them or not.

    To me the question boils down to this: If someone believes the teachings of the Church to be the teachings of Christ, then any truth-lover would, it would seem to me, want to learn and live by them. (Am I missing something here?) If a person (including any Catholic) is not convinced that they are true, then they will not live by them if doing so inconveniences them or costs them anything. Why would they? If they are true, they are a description of reality, what actually exists. If not, then what difference does it make anyway?

    "Is there room for both views within the Catholic church?"

    There is room for multiple views on multiple subjects, except for the dogmas. Those key doctrines are mainly in the Creeds (like the Apostles' Creed). But there are also numerous wonderful spiritual and theological writings which are primarily used to build up one's faith. But there are many approaches to spirituality, and the Catholic church has room for them all, as long as they are not contrary to the faith handed down from the apostles.

    But even if a Catholic chooses to ignore Church teaching, there is little or no policing, just encouragement to return. Even excommunication is mainly self-enforced. If a Catholic is living in adultery, for example, he or she usually knows that they should not take the communion. But they can go to just about any Catholic church and take it anyway if they so choose. According to Catholic teaching, by doing that they drink judgment on themselves. But if they don't believe Catholic teaching about adultery, why should they believe the teaching about communion? Or maybe they believe that Christ wasn't serious when he told his disciples to teach new converts 'to obey all the things he had commanded them.' The only thing they risk is that, if the Catholic church was teaching the truth all along, they may have to explain to Jesus after they die why they didn't obey his teachings, when he said that those who love him would do that.

    Also, is evolution compatible with Catholic belief?

    Catholics believe that God is the Creator of all that exists. What means he used to create is not given to us. He could have created them in one 24-hour day or over millions of years, through guided or unguided evolution or any other means. We have no revelation about the precise means he used, only that he was the Great First Cause of its occurring.

    Humans are unique creatures in that we have a spiritual soul and a physical body. God created a soul for Adam and Eve, and at conception, God creates a soul for each new person. That is a teaching of the Church, and is absolutely unverifiable by science. So there is no conflict. So whether the bodies of Adam and Eve evolved or not, that has no effect whatsoever on the doctrine of creation as understood by informed Catholics.

    Tom

  • StAnn
    StAnn
    Do all Catholics interpret the scriptures literally or do they allow for metaphorical interpretation? Such as the miracles of Jesus or the Trinity understanding itself.

    There is allowance for metaphorical interpretation. The Church tries to get believers to understand that the bible was written in many different genres and thus the scriptures need to be read in light of how they were written.

    A friend of mine is convinced the first 10 chapters of Genesis are literal. I'm convinced they're not. We're still Catholic and still best friends and my priest says it doesn't really matter if they're literal or not, regarding our salvation, so long as we both understand the points being taught. It's the point/message that matters.

    Same thing with evolution. So long as you acknowledge that God set up the systems that caused the various species to develop according to his plan, it makes little difference. God is the origin of all life. How he chose to cause that life to come into being isn't that relative in a spiritual sense. We Catholics don't see the bible as a history or science textbook.

    HTH.

  • StAnn
    StAnn
    I'm allowed to celebrate the Eucharist even though I'm not baptized and live together unmarried.

    In America, you could not partake of the Eucharist without being baptized. Only Catholics are permitted to partake of the Eucharist and, without a valid baptism, you're not Catholic. To become Catholic in the USA as an adult, you go through a year of classes called RCIA. At the end of that year, you are baptized (if you have not yet had a valid christian baptism in your life) and confirmed and then partake of the Eucharist for the first time.

    My doctor's wife is Catholic and he had been attending Mass with her for 20 years and taking communion. One day he actually read through the missallette and discovered that only Catholics could take communion! He stopped taking communion, went through RCIA, and now is Catholic and taking communion again.

  • StAnn
    StAnn
    I seem to see a difference between some believers and especially between certain traditions within the church itself. Also, between what some priests say and what some of the deep thinkers have written.

    The official teachings of the Church come through the magisterium. Priests and theologians and individual members often don't agree with eachother. However, as Catholics, we're not bound by an opinion a theologian may give in a book somewhere. We are bound only by what the Church teaches. People have the room to debate and research and put their opinions out. It's not considered threatening. It's actually encouraged, so that people learn to become deep thinkers and really learn the faith for themselves.

    If you really want to know what the RCC teaches, you go to the Catechism. However, not every little word in the bible is dissected and one hard-core answer given. Sometimes the answer is "we think it's (a) but there is strong evidence for (b) also." What matters is that the things that are necessary for our salvation are understood clearly.

    We're still debating in my catechism class about Abraham! Was he a monotheist or a pagan before becoming a follower of the One True God? I vote for pagan. Others say monotheist. I don't think the catechism is clear on this issue. I don't think it really matters regarding our salvation. It's just one of those little academic things that we love to argue about.

  • bavman
    bavman

    Tom,

    Thanks for getting back to me on this. I would like to continue the conversation if you don't mind?

    The Catholic Church does not have a specified scheme for interpreting the Scriptures. Some parts are literal, others metaphorical, others symbolic or allegorical, etc. Catholics believe that the correct way of interpreting the Old Testament was given to the apostles (compare Luke 24:27, 45) and passed down along with Scripture itself, included as a part of Sacred Tradition. The New Testament was written within the context of a fully functioning church, so it would have been understood perfectly by those who received it, and those understandings were also passed down. Nobody really questioned that perspective until the Reformation.

    Without some authoritative guide like to Scripture interpretation, you get exactly what you see among the Protestants: a multitude of attempts to get to "the real truth" without any way to authoritatively choose between them.

    In addition, Catholics believe that although the faith was complete by the end of the apostolic era, some passages of Scripture have multiple layers of meaning, which become clearer with time. Never does the new meaning replace the old, but rather supplements it. As an example, the text "out of Egypt I called my son" originally applied to the Exodus, but Matthew applies it to Jesus going down into Egypt. The new meaning did not replace, but rather supplemented the old. So rather than a "black and white" perspective, most Catholics who take an interest in this sort of thing have the "both...and" perspective. It means both this and that. Much of life is that way, anyway.

    From what you wrote above I believe you are basing a lot of your faith in the Catholic interpretation on teachings being handed down faithfully. Would that be a fair assesment? I know you have said you have read the Early Church Fathers writings quite a bit so I assume you use that as a basis for that belief. I personally have only read a little from those writings online. I have ordered the 'dictionary' you talked about that your friend published. Hopefully it will be of some help since the writings of the early church fathers seem to be quite extensive.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first part. The miracles show that Christ had divine power, and helped substantiate his claims to be the true Son of God. They were really miracles, not just illusions.

    As for the understanding of the interrelationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the formal statement of the doctrine is was arrived a bishops in council. Their method is explained by Henry R. Percival:

    [begin quote] The question the Fathers considered was not what they supposed Holy Scripture might mean, nor what they, from a priori arguments, thought would be consistent with the mind of God, but something entirely different, to wit, what they had received. They understood their position to be that of witnesses, not that of exegetes. They recognized but one duty resting upon them in this respect — to hand down to other faithful men that good thing the Church had received according to the command of God. The first requirement was not learning, but honesty. The question they were called upon to answer was not, What do I think probable, or even certain, from Holy Scripture? but, What have I been taught, what has been entrusted to me to hand down to others? [end quote]

    Your answer seems to tell me you personally take the miracles literally. What about stories of others who had powers from the same time period such as Honi the Circle Drawer or Hanina ben Dosa? I would like to ask how you would explain the pagan myths having many of the same stories in them? I realize not every myth is exactly the same as the stories of Jesus but enough of them are the same to cause me trouble believing these things ever did actually take place. Still, even if they didn't happen exactly as stated I see no reason to ignore them. I have read writings of Episcopalian writers (such as Marcus Borg) who make a great case for taking them metaphorically and I can still get benefit from that way of looking at it. Again I ask, would I be able to take some of those writings in a metaphorical way and still be Catholic?

    Amen, brother. Evidence convinced me that the Catholic Church has preserved the faith handed down by the apostles. I also believe that these teachings have been miraculously preserved, protected against the tendency of sinful humans to screw with things, and change them, inadvertently or on purpose.

    There are relatively few core teachings (dogmas) in the Catholic faith, only a handful, really. Bishops (or the apostles themselves) have defined them all.(The first example of that was when the bishops in Jerusalem affirmed in council that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised to be Christians.) Theologians have reasoned and enlarged on them, but no teaching of theologians is binding unless the bishops, in council, affirms it to be true, and those occasions are few and far between.

    Unlike the situation in the WTS, Catholics are, from a practical perspective, free to accept or reject Catholic teaching, for there is little or no enforcement as to believing them (or doing anything else the Church teaches, either.) Sadly, many Catholics, including clergy, do not study the teachings of the church, or if they do, they may reserve the right to either believe and act on them or not.

    To me the question boils down to this: If someone believes the teachings of the Church to be the teachings of Christ, then any truth-lover would, it would seem to me, want to learn and live by them. (Am I missing something here?) If a person (including any Catholic) is not convinced that they are true, then they will not live by them if doing so inconveniences them or costs them anything. Why would they? If they are true, they are a description of reality, what actually exists. If not, then what difference does it make anyway?

    What would these core dogmas be? Or where could I read about them? Even being pretty much agnostic (although I am coming to more of a belief in God) myself I still try and follow teachings of Jesus and Ghandi, and Buddha...

    There is room for multiple views on multiple subjects, except for the dogmas. Those key doctrines are mainly in the Creeds (like the Apostles' Creed). But there are also numerous wonderful spiritual and theological writings which are primarily used to build up one's faith. But there are many approaches to spirituality, and the Catholic church has room for them all, as long as they are not contrary to the faith handed down from the apostles.

    But even if a Catholic chooses to ignore Church teaching, there is little or no policing, just encouragement to return. Even excommunication is mainly self-enforced. If a Catholic is living in adultery, for example, he or she usually knows that they should not take the communion. But they can go to just about any Catholic church and take it anyway if they so choose. According to Catholic teaching, by doing that they drink judgment on themselves. But if they don't believe Catholic teaching about adultery, why should they believe the teaching about communion? Or maybe they believe that Christ wasn't serious when he told his disciples to teach new converts 'to obey all the things he had commanded them.' The only thing they risk is that, if the Catholic church was teaching the truth all along, they may have to explain to Jesus after they die why they didn't obey his teachings, when he said that those who love him would do that.

    How are people dealt with who commit a sin like say, commit adultery (from your example above) but want to change, perhaps they have been damaged by abuse or so forth? Also, what happens to those who come foward with abuse allegations?

    Catholics believe that God is the Creator of all that exists. What means he used to create is not given to us. He could have created them in one 24-hour day or over millions of years, through guided or unguided evolution or any other means. We have no revelation about the precise means he used, only that he was the Great First Cause of its occurring.

    Humans are unique creatures in that we have a spiritual soul and a physical body. God created a soul for Adam and Eve, and at conception, God creates a soul for each new person. That is a teaching of the Church, and is absolutely unverifiable by science. So there is no conflict. So whether the bodies of Adam and Eve evolved or not, that has no effect whatsoever on the doctrine of creation as understood by informed Catholics.

    That's cool. I do have a brother-in-law who is Catholic who believes in evolution and has a B.A. in Biology (so does his Dad who is a science teacher). He also takes the miracles of Jesus metaphorically but I am not sure if he tells his church this. Just curious, when you say Adam and Eve, do you mean that metaphorically or literally? So, would you say that Jesus taught the idea of a soul to his apostles who handed that teaching down and where does the bible say that? Or do the Early Church Fathers writings say that somewhere?

    Again, I thank you for taking the time to chat a bit.

  • bavman
    bavman

    I just saw your comments ST ANN. Thanks for those as well. Could you read some of my last comments and tell me what you think your church would say? Also, for you, why do you want to be Catholic?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I am not a Catholic, but living in a traditionally Catholic country I can tell you that the Catholic church here is a very large house, allowing for many interpretations of the dogma, ranging from the most literalist naïveté to the highest of critical, scientific and philosophical scholarship. The positive side of such a big structure is that the narrow, undereducated, simplistic teaching is rarely allowed to dominate exclusively (as often happens in Evangelical churches). The flip side is that the best minds must express themselves very cautiously (especially now under Benedict XVI) and their points are often lost on most. So ambiguity is the key word to me -- and that actually applies to any big, historical, "multitudinist" church, e.g. the Anglican in England, the Lutheran in Scandinavia, or the Reformed in the Netherlands.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Bavman,

    Some scriptures are metaphorical in Catholicism, and open to a variety of individual beliefs. For example, I do not take the Flood of Noah literally, but allegorically, or based on a smaller real event.

    Evolution is open to interpretation. As a person of science, I accept the fact of evolution, and embrace it as God's tool to create the human species. Once the species developed to its full potential, then I believe that God gave Adam and Eve immortal souls. This vies can also embrace the events with Adam over 4,000 years ago. If you look at Genesis, note that God "formed" man or "made" man from the dust of the ground, suggesting a possible process or formation.

    I defer the other issues to a second response, as I have to run soon.

    Jim W.

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