Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Southerner?

by zeroday 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BurnTheShips

  Caedes,

  I won't dispute your figures. As they say, "figures don't lie but liars figure." Even a feeble old woman can defend herself effectively against a strong young thug if she is armed. I find "gun crime" to be a particularly artificial statistic. If I stab you dead or shoot you dead, you are just as dead. The question is what are the violent crime rates, regardless of the weapon used? The fact is that, even if violent crime rates are lower than the US (for sundry and diverse) reasons (hich apparently they are not), these sorts of crimes did go up after removing the access to guns for law-abiding citizenry. We see a similar correlation in Australia. Please note the very sharp increase in England and Wales following the enactment of the 1997 gun regulation and that violent crime rates also increase in Australia despite the enactment of the gun ban in 1997. There is little correlation with the restricion and the rate of violent crime.

  http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html

  Violent crime rate per 100,000 people.

  BTS
• 

  Caedes

  Hillbilly,

  Statistics are no dirtier than hypothetical moral quandaries.

  The gun crime figures have not doubled, BTS was quoting a website who were quoting a newspaper. (chinese whispers anyone?) I quoted the official home office statistics which stated that the figure of 9500 was down on last year meaning that BTS' link had their figures wrong.

  Gun crime doubling in the UK would be headline news, it isn't, knife crime is news.

  I have no desire to get into a debate regarding the rights or wrongs of gun ownership although I can't help wondering what the point of banning guns in one city is going to do in a country where guns are so readily available.

  What would I do in that situation? Shoot, obviously. Funnily, I would still be a liberal afterwards.
• 

  babygirl75

  LOL....

  Southerner....We use only Hollow point in our handguns!!
• 

  Caedes

  BTS

  How about comparing shoplifting? Or burglery? Anything but the statistics relating to gun crime eh?

  If I was beaten up in the street that is violent crime, what does it have to do with guns? You would need much more detailed statistics to prove the link, before 1997 people in the UK were not defending themselves with guns. To suggest that violent crime in the UK has gone up because criminals were no longer afraid of being shot by upstanding UK citizens suggests a complete lack of knowledge of UK culture.

  Gun crime may be an artificial statistic to you but the simple fact is that your levels of gun crime are eight times higher than the UK, enjoy your guns, personally I prefer to live somewhere a little calmer!
• 

  BurnTheShips

  But that's the point, on the whole it ISN'T calmer!

  That said, even if the opposite was true, I would still advocate for an armed citizenry.

  BTS
• 

  veen

  Do you suggest therefore that a proliferation of guns in the UK is the best way to combat gun crime? Also there must be some sort of media censorship hiding the sword based crimes from the British public, as it's a trend I'm unaware of.
• 

  Caedes

  Bts

  So no matter what the gun crime statistics say, the answer is more guns?

  Perhaps the problem of UK violent crime merits its own thread.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Do you suggest therefore that a proliferation of guns in the UK is the best way to combat gun crime?

  If the question is directed to me, I suggest the UK respect that all its subjects "may have arms for their defence " as established in the 1689 Bill of Rights.

  Armament was a check on the power of the Crown. It is a check against excess on the part of government.

  If violent crime rates are reduced, this is a side benefit.

  BTS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  So no matter what the gun crime statistics say, the answer is more guns?

  My point is that so called "gun crime" is a subset of all violent crime. US may have more "gun crime" but the stats I posted above show a lower rate of violent crime. This is despite the fact that the UK tends to underreport violent crime, if news headlines are correct.

  I have not said the answer is more guns, but you seem to think so based on the strong correlation above.

  Shoplifting and burglary are not violent crimes.

  BTS
• 

  Caedes

  BTS

  Are you suggesting that the population of the UK is not free? Are you suggesting that we do not enjoy the freedoms of our democracy?

  Are you suggesting that the checks and balances we have as part of our political system are insufficient? What exactly about owning a gun would make me more proud of my country of birth? We may have more low level crime, and I hope that is something that can be changed. But you cannot get away from the fact that increased gun ownership is directly linked to levels of gun related death. So what you are telling me is that swapping a large amount of low level crime is a worthwhile swap (assuming your hypothesis regarding a link between violent crime and gun ownership is correct) with even larger amounts of gun crime?

  How on earth is gun ownership going to be be a check on the government in a parliamentary democracy? Please tell me, I would love to know exactly how owning a gun is going to effect change in a democracy. Are you suggesting that owning a big stick is a good method for effecting lasting political change?