by Yadirf 56 Replies latest jw friends
Yadirf said:
Siegswife"Logic and reason", but no proof. Typical WT think. Logic and reason tell me that the WTS is full 'o feces.quote:
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Where in the BIBLE does it say that Satan made this star appear?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Logic and reason say so.
TR
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
—Edmund Burke
Hi Yardif,
You said:
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>Would you please answer three questions for me:
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>I will try my darndest … just for you.
Thank you, I appreciate it..
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>1.) Does the bible state literally that the star was sent by satan?
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>In so many words, yes it does. But not directly. There are >sufficient clues to draw such a conclusion from.
The answer is NO it does not, I believe we both agree on this point.
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>2.) Are you or the WTBTS claiming that you received this information >of the 'satanic star' via divine revelation?
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>No ma’am (or is it sir?), that’s not the case at all … at least not >in the same manner that the writers of the Bible were inspired. >However, it does aid one enormously if one’s thoughts are kept in >strict harmony with the spirit of the Bible.
Actually, it's a sir.. I'm confused a bit here, are you saying that it is 100% NOT inspired, but the opinion of a man? I believe that is what you stated, and I am going on that premise unless you tell me otherwise.. Therefor, I am taking your answer as "NO, this is not an inspired utterance, but simply an interpretation from a man or men"
unless you correct me..
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>3.) Being that the 'satanic star' is a mere human opinion held by >either you or the WTBTS or both, can you be 100% sure that you are >correct? If so, how..
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>Yes! … I’m totally sure that is correct deduction to have made.
So, you are claiming an ABSOLUTE TRUTH on this matter, that cannot be changed in any way shape or form, nor can there be in any way "new light" on this matter? If "new light" were revealed, you'd reject it because you have the ABSOLUTE TRUTH now, hence nothing further can be stated about this that can change your mind or further your understanding. In fact, if you went before god himself, and he said, NO, I sent the star to announce my child's birth, you would tell him that he is not the true god, because he is lying and god cannot lie, correct?
>And you can be too, if you allow the Bible to speak for itself.
I do allow the bible to speak for itself, and when the bible cannot speak, because it is not written in the bible the answer, I draw my own conclusions. However, my conclusions are my conclusions, and since I do not claim to be infallable, I cannot in any way be 100% certain that my conclusion is the correct conclusion. Therefor, I live with my conclusion, and it effects me, but I do not condemn others for not sharing my conclusions in cases like this, for the bible states "don't judge others, lest you be judged".
If there is even the slighest possibility that "new light" can change your interpretation of anything in the bible that is NOT specifically spelled out, then it is your chrisitan duty NOT to judge others on that account, for you may be wrong, or eventually get "new light" that refines your opinion.
>All one has to really do is keep it foremost in mind that you want >nothing less than to arrive at the truth of the matter. That means >that you must dedicate enough of your time and energy, along with a >genuine desire to find the treasure (and it is a gem of knowledge >BTW), and you will arrive at the right conclusion as based upon the >clues available from the account.
Trust me, I do that every night when I pray to god..
However, as demonstrated many times by the WT organization, even people who believe they are being given the "truth" change their minds, get "new light" on an old "truth", or just plain "act zealosly" and make predictions because of their eagerness.
The WT is the greatest example of exactly what I am talking about here. They claim to have "truth", yet that truth changes over and over again. Therefor, they cannot claim "ABSOLUTE TRUTH". ABSOLUTE = 100% truth.. Yet, in their 'humbleness', even when they do not have absolute truth, they will condemn anyone who does not share their opinion. And when later given "new light" that shows the "new truth" is the same as what they once condemned others for, they do not appologize nor do they do anything to try and set the matter straight.
I hope with all my heart that you are not simply following these people (THE WTBTS) , and that you know in your heart that you have the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" on the satanic star issue, that you are so sure of yourself that if god himself came to you and declared you were wrong, you would tell him that he wasn't the true god, because you would know it would be a lie, and the true god cannot lie.
Me, I have my opinion, but I am not about to condemn anyone else because I happen to believe the star was sent by god to announce Christ's arrival. I will not judge anyone for having an opinion different from mine, because I am not 100% certain I am correct.
I hope for your sake that the WTBTS doesn't get any 'new light' on the subject of the satanic star, because then you will have to tell them they are wrong, and face disfellowshipping.
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>If not, then how do you claim rightousness and show humility by >passing judgement on all the christian religions that view the star >as a good thing?
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>You’ve asked some very pointed questions, and reasonable ones at >that.
Thank you, and I really appreciate you answering them, and I hope you continue to answer my questions posed here, as I would reallly like to understand you better..
>Insofar as passing “judgment” on Christian Institutions which give >glory to what amounts to nothing less than a Satanic tool, I find >nothing unjust about that … because such agencies have the >obligation to KNOW the truth.
Again, the 'satanic tool' is your conclusion. For you, it is absolute truth, and cannot be made brighter or more true, otherwise it isn't 100% truth, and you have a duty NOT to judge people when you yourself are not 100% certain of the issue.
Again, I certainly hope that the WTBTS doesn't get any "new light" on this matter, as you will have to disagree with them, and face disfellowship.
>As it is, today the truth is available regarding this issue, but the >Churches of Christendom haven’t the ears to hear. The leaders of >those Institutions bear a far heavier responsibility than do those >church members who merely trust their judgment as those who are >supposed to know what they are talking about when it comes to >doctrinal matters such as this.
Are you also stating the correlary, that is the WTBTS bears a far heavier responsibility than the R&F members who merely trust their judgement?
If this is the case, are you now stating that even though you've been told that the 'satanic star' is a 100% "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" and you can pass judgement on others who do not hold your "fact", you bear limited responsibility in the face of god if infact this is not the case, and the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" turns out to be incorrect?
I believe the bible states DIRECTLY that every person will be judged individually, and that everyone should test for themselves, and hold on to what is true.
If you believe the star is satanic because the WTBTS told you it was, and you even 'double checked' yourself and came to the same conclusion, then doesn't the bible state that you share equally in that responsibility?
In fact, the bible tells you to hold on to what is true.. Therefor, if you have a belief that you got from someone else, you should test it and be certain of it's 'truth' before you yourself believe it.
With that in mind, it is your responsibility to take everything that the WT gives you as "food" and check it to be certain of it for yourself. If you have done that, and agree with it, then you are just as responsible as the F&DS, for you tested for yourself, and drew the same conclusions.
If you did not test it yourself, and just accepted what was given to you as truth, then you are not only following men, but you are NOT following the bible.
Either way, you will be judged individually by god when judgement comes.
>I’m not one to show favoritism either, as I have some personal >issues with the WTBTS. For example, I reject the idea that 1914 saw >the beginning of Christ’s “presence”,and all that swings around the >year 1914 … as still being taught by the WTBTS. For that reason I no >longer am able to conscientiously participate in the offering of the >Society’s literature to the public. But, I know that things will >change so that the WTS is in full harmony with the Scriptures with >regards to everything.
I am very impressed that you tested something, and found for yourself that you do not believe something. That is excellent!!!!
Interestingly enough, by you bringing this up, you have illustrated my point perfectly. The WTBTS claims "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" on the matter of 1914 being the year that Christ came back invisibly. They will DF anyone who does not agree with this, and they constantly condemn other religions who do not 'see' this 'so called truth'. They are passing judgement on others because of their "ABSOLUTE TRUTH".. Yet, you are hopeful that their "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" will get "new light". Therefor, you don't believe that they have ABSOLUTE TRUTH on this matter.. They, however, at the moment, are acting as if they do have ABSOLUTE TRUTH on the matter, and judging anyone who disagrees with them..
Your own situation has illistrated my point perfectly!
>How do I know that? It’s a rather long story, that I doubt that >you’re in a position to appreciate at this time.
Try me, you'd be surprised..
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>Thanks in advance for your answers
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>Thank you for being so congenial. And I hope that I have perhaps >helped a little, or at least not ruffled the feathers too much.
>Yadirf
Thank you for the thoughtful reply, and I also appreciate your congeniality in the matter. I look forward to reading your next reply.
May peace be with you,
- Wannahelp
- http://www.ewtn.com/gallery/exhibit/child/index.htm
- http://www.ewtn.com/gallery/exhibit/child/puer2.htm
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
yadirf-
thanks for the links and the ignore.
aa
Hi Yardif,
I'm not sure if those links are in response to my questions/answers or not, but they don't answer anything..
The JW's claim to have the TRUTH, and because they judge other religions as false religions, I would assume they claim "ABSOLUTE TRUTH"..
So, would the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" respond to my questions please.
Thanks,
- Wannahelp
BTW: I was just informed yesterday that there are scriptures in the bible that state that astrology is nto something that god likes.. (Haven't actually read the scriptures).. But, once again, even if I change my view, and now believe that the star was from SATAN, I really would like your response(s), as I still feel that there are hypocrisy's in your logic:
A.) Let's assume I now believe the star was put there by SATAN (I'm actually leaning in that direction now).. What does this change in the way of "SALAVATION"?
According to the bible, salvation is granted via underserved kindness and grace of God and Jesus Christ, not because we have 'earned' it, but because we have faith in Jesus that he did exist, was the son of god, and died for our sins (All people's sins, past, present and future).
Where does it say that I have to believe the star is satanic or angelic to be saved?
B.) Even though I have changed my opinion, I still do not claim absolute truth in the matter, as a human being cannot know the real truth unless it is clearly written down (directly, not via reasoning, as reasoning is subject to human failings) or we are able to talk and ask direct questions of the people involved. Since we cannot do that, we cannot be 100% of truth, therefor I will not condemn or judge others (religious organizations or individuals) because of my opinion. I would really like to hear your justification of this, as to me it sounds like you are taking a rightous stance without the rightous credibility..
I'll give you an example from the WT's history.
Back in the 1960's the WT 'reasoned' that organ transplants were cannibalistic in nature.. I assume they don't claim this was a divine revelation, but was gotten at by 'examining the scriptures'. In the 1980's, they 're-examined the scriptures' and stated that this was not the case, and organ transplants are now ok.. Between the 1960s and the 1980's, I'm sure that people died because they rejected life saving organ transplants. Yet, all JW's believed that the organ transplant as being cannibalistic was "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" based on the F&DS's interpretations of the scriptures. Well, interestingly enough this "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" which one would have certainly been DF'd for if they accepted an organ transplant during the "cannibal" years got 'new light' which added to the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" that completely revered their decision..
Here is another example, happening recently. FOr years the F&DS stated that blood transfusions were to be abstained from. Suddenly, last june certain fractions of blood can now be accepted.. There was "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" for years that accepting any blood was a DF offense, but last year 'new light' was received that allowed certain fractions to be conscientiously accepted. How many people died as a result of this "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" that was recently changed?
Absolute truth cannot change, yet your truth's change constantly. Therefor, you do not have absolute truth. In fact, I believe that the F&DS can present new light on any subject, so, that would state to me that you have absolute truth on nothing.. Yet, even though these things can change, and have, in some cases flip-flopping back and forth many times, whatever the "ABOLSUTE TRUTH" is at the time is what must be adheared to, must be accepted without question, even if it means death, and is used as signs that the other religions and individuals don't have this knowledge given by "god's chosen channel of communication"..
C.) How can you claim to be "God's chosen channel of communication" and at the same time claim not to be inspired by god in some way?
D.) Why did you not directly answer my questions? The truth should be able to stand up to any test(s), as the bible itself states.. By running away, you are saying in essence, that I do not have the truth because I am afraid of these questions.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Peace be with you...
- Wannahelp
Wannahelp,as for my "answers" see here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16057&site=3
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Surprise, not an answer.. Just your claim of rightous indignation, used as an excuse not to answer the questions which you know you cannot answer.
Your lack of answers is the answer..
Peace be with you,
- Wannahelp
