Why JWs should soft-pedal the "Divine Name"

by Open mind 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    This is prompted by Reniaa who claims that one of the things that JWs have right is the name Jehovah.

    You know how if you're trying to convert someone to be a JW, you put your best foot forward and try to keep the controversial stuff that might "stumble" them on the back burner? (Like say, Mother's Day or when I was a kid, Pinatas?) Well, that's how I categorize the whole topic of the Divine Name. Only I'm not talking about just the JWs, I'm talking about the Bible and the God of the Bible.

    The whole topic of the Divine Name, when you research it, is something that Bible believers should soft-pedal and not call attention to, IMHO. Here's why in a nut shell.

    The JWs have done a great job at teaching you and me dozens of scriptures that emphasize how SUPER IMPORTANT it is that God's NAME be used, honored, sanctified, etc. We know those verses are in there.

    Now back up a second and put on your neutral, 3rd party, alien-visiting-from-another-planet glasses.

    OK, first there's a God who made everything and since he made everything, it's REALLY IMPORTANT that people know and use his name. (Sounds a little psycho from a human perspective, but let's run with it. Especially since the carrot of eternal life is involved.) He even puts statements to that effect throughout the Bible.

    Then He fumbles the ball, BIG TIME!

    If His actual name is so important to Him, would He do the following?:

    First verbal contact with humans: Adam, circa 4000 BC.

    First time he bothers to have a human start writing stuff down: 2500 years later, Moses.

    OK, no biggie. God knew what His name was all along and He'll make sure Moses gets it right. Right?

    Not so fast.

    The Divine Being who was able to snap his fingers at Babel and create multiple languages on the spot does what? He gives four CONSONANTS to a people who have no written vowels and hopes for the best! Does he step in now and then throughout the centuries and correct things? No. So the actual pronunciation gets long lost and a Spanish monk (Raymundo Martini) in the 14 century comes up with a Spanish version of Jehovah.

    Conclusion:

    Either 1. God is a bumbler, (the awesome universe, if it was created, says that can't be so) or

    2. the Bible isn't all it's cracked up to be or

    3. there's another way of looking at it. (See p.s. below)

    Quick re-cap:

    1. God's name is super important to Him.

    2. He gave Moses a short-hand version of it.

    3. He did nothing to preserve the vowels over time.

    4. Even his "Chosen People" the JWs, admit that it's not really Jehovah when you back them into a corner.

    So, if you're trying to convince people of how great the Bible is, I'd keep the whole Divine Name thing sort of hush hush for now.

    OM

    p.s. For the Bible believers, to undo the entire argument above all you have to do is substitute the word "reputation" for "name" and it's all good again. IMO.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Sums it up pretty well OM.

    Once you name a thing, you have limited it in a sense.

    The Jews figured it out too. They stopped using YHWH and started merely saying HaShem.

    "The Name"

    BTS

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Yep, they've dug a hole for themselves.

    The term Christians should use for the Father is ABBA - so simple even a child can say it.

    In fact it is an onomatopoeia. I knew I would get to use that word one day!

    Sylvia

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi open mind :)

    I disagree on the soft pedal of the divine name, it's what makes the Jehovah's Witnesses unique and it's hard to soft pedal something that you have right on the table as soon as you reveal who you are.

    heres the facts......on jehovah

    The Hebrew tetragrammaton, YHWH, is the way the name of God appears in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew language is a consonantal language, possessing no vowels. Vowels were pronounced, but not written. They were transmitted orally from generation to generation. This may like a difficult system, and quite strange to us, but it is not that difficult. Just as you can decipher that THS S TH WY TH HBRW PPL WRT BCK THN, means "this is the way Hebrew people wrote back then," so could they easily pronounce words without vowels.

    By about 200 B.C., after the time of the Exile, and due to superstition, Jews would no longer pronounce God’s name for fear that they would take it in vain by not saying it properly. Instead of pronouncing the tetragrammaton, they would say Adonai, which is the Hebrew word meaning Lord. Because of this superstition, no one today knows exactly how it was pronounced.

    So here's the question because superstitious jews allowed the correct pronouciation of JHWH to laps should we follow suit and not use it? deciding like the jews did to use the word "Lord" that is a completely different word but it also has a different meaning in that it isn't a name but just an anominous title, is better than trying to pronounce God's name?

    The one thing I noticed on this site is you all talk about lies and truth a lot and here we have an example of something deliberately obscured by men out of superstition, that then went on to be directly causal in more misconceptions having the two main characters in the bible both called Lord was bound to end in trouble.

    the 1611 version of king james bible used jehovah 7 times

    The KJV translators used the name "Jehovah" whenever the name Yahweh was found under one of the following three conditions:

    1. When YHWH is used as God’s personal name.

    Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

    Ps 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

    2. When God’s name is repeated as "Jah Jehovah."

    Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

    Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

    3. When God’s personal name is part of a place name.

    Jehovah-jireh

    Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

    Jehovah-nissi

    Exodus 17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi:

    Jehovah-shalom

    Judges 6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites.

    modern versions of the bible even want to wipe these few exceptions for example :-

    Isaiah 12:2 (New International Version)

    2 Surely God is my salvation;
    I will trust and not be afraid.
    The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song;
    he has become my salvation."

    Do you think this scripture now makes better sense?

    and isaiah 26 :4

    New American Standard Bible(©1995)
    "Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
    Trust the LORD always, because the LORD, the LORD alone, is an everlasting rock.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa

    The NWT does o just fine in restoring the Divine name to the OT...as do other versions such as the ASV. We have the backup to show the Tetragrammeton was present. However, the NWT is alone and unsubstiated in 'restoring' the Divine name to the NT- they have 'restored' something that was never there. Acts 4:12 is pretty clear as to the name we need to call upon. So is Phil 2:9...so is Roman 10:9-13 (although in verse 13 the NWT wrongly 'restores' the Divine name and muddies who we are to call on, the context of the preceding verses shows it to be Jesus).

  • middleman
    middleman

    reniaa, I see a lot of writing from you but I still don't see your point.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Reniaa

    The NWT does o just fine in restoring the Divine name to the OT...as do other versions such as the ASV. We have the backup to show the Tetragrammeton was present. However, the NWT is alone and unsubstiated in 'restoring' the Divine name to the NT- they have 'restored' something that was never there

    isaacaustin

    I appreciate your point isaac and the 130 something times Jws have put jehovah into the Nt they have to be accountable for but I would uphold them if they putting it in a scripture which is a direct quote from an OT one using the tetragrammeton. how can it be more correct not to use it if your quoting from a scripture that does use it?

    36 For David himself said by the holy spirit, ' Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make 37 thine enemies thy footstool. ...

    and jws weren't the first to put it into the nt

  • "Newcome" New Testament altNew window
    Translated by William Newcome, but revised by Unitarians. Published 1808. One of the first to use "Jehovah" in the NT, and the first in English to translate John 1:1 "the Word was a god".
  • Griesbach Novum Testamentum Graece, Vol 2 (1810) altNew window
    Facsimile of the second volume of Griesbach's last edition of his Greek Testament.
  • Heinfetter New Testament altNew window
    A literal translation of the New Testament, by Herman Heinfetter. Translated by Frederick Parker. 1863. Digital facsimile in PDF. Uses "Jehovah" many places.
  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    I appreciate your point isaac and the 130 something times Jws have put jehovah into the Nt they have to be accountable for but I would uphold them if they putting it in a scripture which is a direct quote from an OT one using the tetragrammeton. how can it be more correct not to use it if your quoting from a scripture that does use it?

    36 For David himself said by the holy spirit, ' Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make 37 thine enemies thy footstool. ...
    and jws weren't the first to put it into the nt

    "Newcome" New TestamentNew window
    Translated by William Newcome, but revised by Unitarians. Published 1808. One of the first to use "Jehovah" in the NT, and the first in English to translate John 1:1 "the Word was a god".

    Griesbach Novum Testamentum Graece, Vol 2 (1810)New window
    Facsimile of the second volume of Griesbach's last edition of his Greek Testament.

    Heinfetter New TestamentNew window
    A literal translation of the New Testament, by Herman Heinfetter. Translated by Frederick Parker. 1863. Digital facsimile in PDF. Uses "Jehovah" many places.

    Reniaa,

    You are saying that when a OT quote that bears the Divine name is quoted in the NT, Jehovah should be used in the NT. I have heard this reasoning before..and i have been asked if I felt that Jesus, for instance, used the title Lord as opposed to Jehovah. Yes, I do. Let's look at a verse that the NWT insert Jehovah into the NT- Matt 22:3-4-40

    " 34 After the Pharisees heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

    We see Jehovah in verse 37. I beleive Jesus used the title Lord. Why? Reading the account we see the religious leaders were trying (unsuccessfully) to 'trap' Jesus. They could not catch him in anything. had he used the Divine name- which they would have considered blasphemy- they would have had him.

    The sources you gave me for use of the name Jehovah in the NT are simply translations from the 1800's- WHICH WERE TRANSLATED FROM THE SAME GREEK MANUSCRIPTS ALL OTHER VERSIONS WERE TANSLATED FROM. As we well know, the 5000+ extant copies do not contain the Divine name. So those sources you quoted give no evidence that the Divine name belongs in the NT.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    "Newcome" New Testament altNew window
    Translated by William Newcome, but revised by Unitarians. Published 1808. One of the first to use "Jehovah" in the NT, and the first in English to translate John 1:1 "the Word was a god".

    Not a valid source- notice the words "Revised by Unitarians"

  • blondie
    blondie

    Notice how the "suggested" presentations avoid using "Jehovah."

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