Endosymbiosis --- A challenge to Dawkins' Universal Darwinism

by hamilcarr 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Galileo
    Galileo

    Lynn Margulis has made a valuable contribution to the understanding of evolution, specifically concerning the origins mitochondria and plastids. Her hypothesis pertaining to this area of evolution is now widely accepted and has led to a more full understanding of how evolution works, alongside other mechanisms, such as natural selection. She also has many other ideas that are not yet supported by evidence. Some eventually may be, and many of her others will no doubt eventually be falsified. This is how science works. Most hypotheses are eventually falsified. She feels competition is over emphasized as an evolutionary driving force, but so far the weight of the evidence is against her in this particular hypothesis. As her hypothesis is tested, eventually she may be proven correct, and the standard model will change.

    I think this entire "fight" is being blown way out of proportion. "Fights" of this kind are just science. Lynn Margulis believes passionately in her ideas and argues vociferously against contrary ideas. Good for her. Science needs such personalities in order for ideas to be thoroughly vetted. I'm kind of baffled as to why religious people have taken this one hypothesis and clung to it like it's the second coming. She's not proposng that she has evidence against evolution by any means, only a new mechanism for it. The only explanation I can see is that perhaps the hatred of Richard Dawkins in the religious community is so great that anything seeming to show he's wrong on any point is seen as a pearl of great price. I think you are wasting time and effort here. Science doesn't have infallible leaders. No one expects any scientist to be correct all the time. Even Richard Dwkins himself has praised Lynn Margulis' endosymbiotic theory, which he once argued against.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr
    I'm kind of baffled as to why religious people have taken this one hypothesis and clung to it like it's the second coming.

    I'm not a religious person but still believe this scientific theory is more accurate than Dawkins'. I don't think there's any link between being religious and 'clinging' to Margulis.

    She's not proposng that she has evidence against evolution by any means, only a new mechanism for it.

    This thread isn't by any means anti-evolution. I just don't believe Dawkins' modern synthesis of darwinism and mendelianism can be applied to any form of evolution, as argued by universal darwinists (thread title!).

    I think you are wasting time and effort here.

    Then, why do you reply?

  • Galileo
    Galileo

    hamilcarr, I wasn't responding to you specifically, many have responded in this thread. This was my statement:

    The only explanation I can see is that perhaps the hatred of Richard Dawkins in the religious community is so great that anything seeming to show he's wrong on any point is seen as a pearl of great price. I think you are wasting time and effort here.

    I was saying here as in this line of reasoning, not here as in this thread or in this forum. I'm sorry if that was interpreted as my saying this thread was a waste of time. I actually found reading Lynn Margulis quite interesting. Also:

    I'm not a religious person but still believe this scientific theory is more accurate than Dawkins'.

    It's not a theory, it's a hypothesis about the mechanisms for the theory of evolution. As I stated, Richard Dawkins accepts those parts of her hypothesis that have to date been tested and supported by the evidence. And whether you belong to a religion or not, even a cursory glance at your history seems to shows you believe in god, forgive me if that is incorrect, I don't want to make inaccurate assumptions. If that is the case, then my point about the religious community could apply equally well. Just substitute "amongst believers" for "the religious community". It still seems to me that the strong reactions of many here have been motivated by a dislike of Richard Dawkins, and that largely because of his atheist activism, rather than a genuine excitement over the possiblity of a new understanding of one mechanism of evolution.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr
    And whether you belong to a religion or not, even a cursory glance at your history seems to shows you believe in god, forgive me if that is incorrect, I don't want to make inaccurate assumptions.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/153040/1.ashx

    It still seems to me that the strong reactions of many here have been motivated by a dislike of Richard Dawkins, and that largely because of his atheist activism, rather than a genuine excitement over the possiblity of a new understanding of one mechanism of evolution.

    I think that this time the most strong reactions came from the Dawkins defenders.

  • Galileo
    Galileo

    Thanks for the link. That was a great thread, and I probably never would have read it, as it was before my time here. I noticed you conspicuously didn't mention your own viewpoint. I would guess perhaps you're a theistic agnostic? If you don't want to discuss it, that's cool.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    I don't think it's easy to label my current position, perhaps ignosticism comes closest. Discussing the existence of God is I think first and foremost a linguistic problem.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    A recent NYTimes review, providing further evidence for the close genetic relationship between humans and bacterias:

    E. Coli and You

    By PETER DIZIKES Published: June 29, 2008

    From Victorian England to contemporary America, creationists have often denied that we are related to other primates. But the hard truth of our genealogy does even greater damage to human pride. We are cousins of every living thing, including the billions of E. coli bacteria in our intestines. This kinship may not be flattering, but it is useful. By studying these tiny creatures, we learn about other organisms, including ourselves. As the French biologist Jacques Monod once said, “What is true for E. coli is true for the elephant.”

    Carl Zimmer effectively applies this principle in his engrossing new book, “Microcosm,” relating the study of these microbes to larger developments in biology and thoughtfully discussing the social implications of science. If you must limit yourself to only one title on bacteria this year, “Microcosm” is a good pick.

    As Zimmer explains, a number of landmark discoveries have involved E. coli, including experiments confirming the universality of biochemistry and revealing how genes function. Studying the many strains of E. coli (most are innocuous) suggests something further: the divergent behavior of genetically identical bacteria, Zimmer writes, is “a warning to those who would put human nature down to any sort of simple genetic determinism.”

    Along with some more familiar material, Zimmer vividly describes the unfamiliar microscopic world of E. coli and their tightly packed, rod-shaped bodies: “If you prick us, we bleed, but if you prick E. coli, it blasts.” And unlike mammals, bacteria often swap genetic material, placing limits on Monod’s dictum. However, species large and small absorb DNA from viruses. For E. coli and humans alike, Zimmer emphasizes, “there are no fixed essences in life.”

    “Microcosm” also examines E. coli’s contentious public life. Creationists claim its tail-like, propulsive flagellum is proof of someone’s intentional design. But at the 2005 trial over the teaching of “intelligent design” in Dover, Pa., scientists showed that the flagellum is not inexplicably complex. The resistance some E. coli have developed to antibiotics (whose limits are given their own slightly disquieting chapter) provides yet more evidence for evolution.

    In the 1970s, tinkering with E. coli helped scientists learn to manipulate genes, making the bacterium, Zimmer says, “the monster and the mule” of bioscience — a symbol of fears about genetic experimentation, as well as a workhorse used to make drugs. Here, he calmly finds a middle ground. While these initial concerns have remained largely unrealized, “genetic engineering has fallen far short of the more extravagant promises” about the eradication of major diseases that were offered 30 years ago.

    Broadly, Zimmer sees public tolerance for genetic engineering increasing as science further reveals our patchwork genomic cloth. “New research on human evolution,” he writes, “makes it impossible to believe that a thing either is or is not a whole human being,” as some conservative opponents of biomedical inventions have argued. If our attempts to define a uniquely human core are arbitrary, however, they help us decide how to live. Zimmer thus hopes a debate over genetic engineering will produce a “deeper understanding of what it means to be human: not as an inviolable essence but as a complex cloud of genes, traits, environmental influences and cultural forces.”

    Desirable as this discussion sounds, is it likely? As Zimmer notes, a bit too briefly, the emergence of biotechnology as an economic force dampened this debate three decades ago. Still, some public advocacy groups remain wary of bioscience, and coming innovations could revive opposition from cultural conservatives, rights-based interest groups and liberals upset at the uneven distribution of these goods. Genetic engineering and new forms of biomedicine could therefore engender a worthy civic dialogue or aggravate old political fractures. Or biotechnology may simply roll on. In any case, Zimmer adroitly links the common heritage we share with E. coli and the emerging horizons of science: “Through E. coli we can see the history of life, and we can see its future as well.”

    Peter Dizikes is a science journalist based in Boston.

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