honest question for unbiased bible scholars

Bridgette

One of my interests is the study of people's belief systems (more from an anthropological standpoint). I've just begun to delve into Judaism. Everything I've relied upon for their history, etc. comes from Christianity, so I'm trying to go to the source.
Anyway, my question is, do you think that Jesus truly intended to set up an entirely different religion from Judaism? I know about the new covenant and the fulfillment of the law and all, but now that I'm reading more about Judaism, seems to me, he considered himself a Jew through and through.
I'm interested in what others think. Key word here, think. So, (and I say this respectfully) please any christians who may respond, do not try to convert me. I'm nothing but a sojourner asking a question.
Love,
Bridgette

SixofNine

Christians (well, JW's anyway) make much of the fact that Jesus referenced the old testament. Ie: "see, Jesus quoted from it, it must be the word of God". More and more, I view Jesus as someone who, if he even existed, saw the futility of Judaism, and worked to dismantle it. And yet, Judaism is where he no doubt got much of his thoughts on God, so of course he would reference it when needed.

If he existed, I would guess that he really did have intense personal "spiritual" feelings, and maybe even felt he was the messiah.

I am btw, not a bible scholar, nor do I even play one on db.

Joseph Joachim

Bible Scholar Joseph Joachim answers: No! If he had intended to do so he would have chosen his Apostles better. It was self-appointed Apostle Paul who realized that there was something else to Christianity than just another Jewish sect, and he had to fight hard against Peter, James and John to talk them out of it. The Bible shows it very clearly. For some reason Paul is not a very popular fellow in this board, but if it wasn't for him we would all have to circumsize and eat kosher food.

JJ

Unclepenn1

Hey Bridgette, nice to see ya! I wanted to respond to your heartfelt post about Laree but never had time. Perhaps later, will you still read it? OK, about Jesus. The question being, did Jesus try and set up a new religion. The answer is no. But Jesus completed the Hebrew faith. If you look at the OT rituals, Passover, The Temple, the Mercy Seat, the scapegoat, the sacrifice, the High Priest, all were fulfilled in Christ. In fact, they have not much meaning to the ordinary Jew because they never saw the culmination of what they were symbols of. Everything in the OT points to Christ, from the water from the rock to the manna from heaven. Since the Jews rejected Jesus and are still waiting for a Messiah, they perform these holidays and rituals not knowing that it has already had its fulfillment. Christ is our High Priest, we do not need to go to a priest to confess sin or make a sacrifice (sorry Catholics). Christ is the scapegoat. The Jews would put the sins of Israel on a goat and release it in the desert. The other goat was a sacrifice for sin. Both were fulfilled in Christ. He is all and is in all. He is the High Priest, who makes intercession for us to God. He was also the Passover lamb. The Jews put blood on their doorposts to keep them from judgement and Christ is the lamb that was slain, keeping us from judgement.Anyway, there are lots more but that should give you an idea. Keep in mind that Jesus is the creator of the universe.(John 1, Col 1, Heb 1) So asking if He really thought He was to set up a new religion is kind of a strange question?

God Bless,

Penn

Mohammed- 'My teachings lead to the attainment of truth'
Buddha- 'The truth has been revealed to me'
Jesus- 'I am the truth'

Pathofthorns

I'm not a scholar either (LOL)

But I think Jesus was a rebel against a flawed and oppressive religious system. He had a brilliant grasp of human behaviour and thinking and I think that he was trying to pass that onto people.

I doubt he was really trying to start a new religion so much as he was trying to change the way people thought. For many people, slavery exists in the mind and I think he was helping to free them.

Path

ChimpGirl

Hi there
Good question, so here's my attempt at a response: I don't think Jesus was out to start a new religion, but rather to cut through all the ceremony and hierarchy of organised religion, replacing it instead with a direct relationship with God.
John the Baptist forged the way, baptising Jews for the forgiveness of sins, because all the old rituals and practices had become just that - lip service verging on superstition.
I believe he came to show a new way, something simple enough for everyone to get involved in without having to be a scholar or be born into the right family; he cut through barriers of race, religion and gender to get back to the original essence, that of a meaningful relationship between the Creator and the created. I certainly can't find anything in scripture to suggest that he wanted another religion, with titles and hierarchies and traditions and superstitions, to replace Judaism.
Hope that's some help, will continue watching this thread with interest!
CG

Celtic

The original covenant was made with Abraham, I dont think this has changed.

1948 Israel became an independent nation state. 1914? Go figure.

peace

celtic

Bridgette

Thank you so much for all the posts. Somehow, I knew you wouldn't let me down, Penn! Great to see your post (I felt kinda bad for my parody on Marduke that one time).
Anyway, I kind of think he was indeed a historical figure and enlightened human who really understood what was behind all of the Jargon of Judaism at the time. But I do not think he meant to break away from Judaism.
About Paul. Do you really think he wished to break away from Judaism, so much as to practice reformed Judaism within the sect they'd created within Judaism? Sorry for the wording.
Anyway. just curious. My father-in-law is Jewish. Mostly secular, but a very learned man. It's got me curious about Judaism. One thing he pointed out was that the one common theme amongst the Jews at any time is they were allowed--even encouraged to question. Even (especially) the rabbi's. They revere education and higher learning and understanding. It's woven into their cultural and religious fabric. In fact, that's where much of the "christian" proselitizing (sp) was done, in the synagogues. They were obviously attending temple, and allowed to question and offer their interpretations of the Law. How different from the WTBTS--question the higher ups?!!? Promote deeper understanding of the universe?!?!? *GASP*
Anyway, are there any other Jews out there?
Has anyone ever heard of Jesus or (Yeshua) ben Pantera?
Curious
Thank you,
Bridgette

Bridgette

Celtic,
Can you elaborate?

accuracy

According to the Gospel record, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law (and thus Judaism), not to destroy it, and to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus lived and died, as to his humanity, a Jew. His first disciples were Jews. Interestingly, according to the book of Acts, James, the brother of Jesus, said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans [i.e., Jews], and they are all zealots for the Torah." (Acts 21:20, "Jewish New Testament," by David H. Stern, 1989) The Jewish Christians of that time still kept the Law; it was Gentile converts to Christianity who were released from that obligation by the first Christian governing body in Jerusalem. However, as Paul said, it was no longer the Law that Christians looked to *for salvation*, but to Jesus.

As for Yeshua (Jesus) ben Pantera, look in the Talmud. The Jews of the first four centuries, C.E., did not doubt the existence of Jesus, and Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud, even if derogatorily as respects his birth.

honest question for unbiased bible scholars

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