Taking apart the Memorial

by jgnat 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  To me the most blatant inconsistency of the WT (on this topic) consists in requiring Christian baptism from those to whom it denies the Eucharist.

  In Pauline literature (compare Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 10--11) the symbolism of the two "sacraments" is basically the same (sharing in Christ's death and his resurrected body), and in early Christianity at large they applied to the same people.

  The WT would be more consistent (if not scriptural) if they at least qualified the baptism of the "non-anointed" differently (say, as John's "baptism of repentance"). One consequence of which might be the (embarrassing) need for a new (properly "Christian") baptism if one "switches hopes" (cf. Acts 19). But presenting the baptism of both "anointed" and "non-anointed" as identical in form and symbol leads to a logical dead end: one baptism, two hopes (contrast Ephesians 4:4ff)?
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  TD

  It sounds like you feel we are condemning ourselves by not partaking?

  Just a public rejection of what Jesus offers. --Nothing much

  "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
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  reniaa

  but is he referring to the bread and wine or actually himself and his teachings? it's easy to eat a piece of bread and drink a little wine and say I follow jesus, it's much harder to walk the path he walked and follow his actual words?

  Isn't the memorial just representative of a choice people make to follow jesus the same as baptism is a choice of entering Jw's, and both need to be followed by actions?
• 

  TD

  but is he referring to the bread and wine or actually himself and his teachings? it's easy to eat a piece of bread and drink a little wine and say I follow jesus, it's much harder to walk the path he walked and follow his actual words?

  How did the earliest Christians interpret it?

  "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."
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  jgnat

  You talk of communion but I did not feel the lack, it felt just as sacred and as just as much as we were honouring jesus but it's like we were humble and not worthy to partake, recognising we were destined to live on earth forever and not be kings and priests in heaven, it's very hard to explain.

  I can talk of chocolate but if you haven't partaken, you wouldn't know what you are missing, would you?

  TD said it better than I could myself. There's the small matter of offending Jesus. Then there's condemnation of the Watchtower leadership of depriving most of it's membership this blessed event. As for the participants? How would they know any better unless they searched it out for themselves?

  The loss of communion is a terrible thing.
• 

  slimboyfat

  Hey Narkissos,

  The WT would be more consistent (if not scriptural) if they at least qualified the baptism of the "non-anointed" differently (say, as John's "baptism of repentance"). One consequence of which might be the (embarrassing) need for a new (properly "Christian") baptism if one "switches hopes" (cf. Acts 19). But presenting the baptism of both "anointed" and "non-anointed" as identical in form and symbol leads to a logical dead end: one baptism, two hopes (contrast Ephesians 4:4ff)?

  Don't they sort of do this when they claim only the anointed have a spiritual baptism "for the purpose of being dead ones"? (1 Cor 15:29) I wonder if you remember this rather peculiar take on an obscure scripture, or if much was made of it while you were in. We had a WT study article on the subject a few years ago and it was a bit weird. But they don't require anointed ones to be baptised again literally. People declare they are anointed invariably after baptism, and nowadays often some period of time after baptism.

  I would quote you references but I am no good at that I am afraid and I don't know where my CD is at the moment. I tried searching online and there is not much about it, apart from a yahoo discussion where the JW view is mentioned:

  http://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080430015144AANj9pJ

  Slim
• 

  jgnat

  SBF, might this be it?

  *** w96 7/1 pp. 16-17 par. 13 Jehovah’s Great Spiritual Temple ***

  13 The first compartment of the temple pictures a condition superior to that of the courtyard. In the case of the perfect human Jesus Christ, it pictures his rebirth as a spiritual Son of God destined to return to heavenly life. After being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Christ’s shed blood, these anointed followers also experience this special operation of God’s spirit. (Romans 8:14-17) Through "water [that is, their baptism] and spirit," they are "born again" as spiritual sons of God. As such, they have the hope of being resurrected to heavenly life as spirit sons of God, provided they remain faithful till death.—John 3:5, 7; Revelation 2:10.
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  jgnat

  If I read you right reniaa, are you suggesting that personal daily choices are superior to traditions and rituals? That may be so, but I find that rituals also ground me and remind me...and my children who follow. Don't you find that of all the events of our clouded childhood, it's the repeated rituals and events over the years, the family stories that are told over and over again, that stay with us? I am convinced our minds and hearts need that repetition in order to remember.

  Besides, if God says it is important, who am I to argue?

  The regular festivals that the Isrealites observed help to unify them as a nation and to pass on their knowledge from one generation to another. Also, God told them to do it. Joshua 4:1-9, Exodus 12:25-27, Exodus 23:15-22.
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  Robert222

  I find this topic very interesting and I am still digesting the info - but in my opinion the JWs memorial was strictly a corporate decision. I think maybe us out here are trying to explain JW doctrine when in fact they are all about the money and membership. I think (we) give the JWs way too much credit. They are just a bunch of money hungry men preserving their posh lifestyle in the East.

  I read that years ago the group of annointed got tired of the same small group meeting once a year for the passover meal. So they invited the "great crowd" to WATCH them partake. It resulted in more donations, and a valuable recruiting effort because of the memorial talk.

  I just think JWs need to see what their religion is - it is just another corporate entity wheeling and dealing for money, tax free real estate, and scamming innocent people out of their hard earned money.

  Other religions seem to accept all people who want to believe in Christ and be taught the bible. I always remembered enjoying the Catholic services as a child until my parents changed over to JW and the torture of us kids began and the isolation from other people.
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  slimboyfat

  That's not the one I was thinking of jgnat. It was a more recent Watchtower study article that was all about the special 'baptism of death' that anointed ones have. I have been trying to find it, but I don't see it. It was more recent than 2000 anyway I reckon. It was pretty weird stuff.