what is there to find "beyond" reason? (inspired by BurnTheShips)

by inkling 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  inkling

  I was struck by the honesty of a recent comment by BurnTheShips,
  but I didn't want to hijack the thread...

  [W]e see a lot of threads where atheists try to disprove that God exists. Atheism is a universal negative, how can one know for a certainty that something does not exist without infinite knowledge? It can't be disproved, so the shoe is on the other foot. Agnosticism seems the only postion that reason alone can lead, or perhaps some form of deism.

  Although I would imagine some would disagree, I think this the only honest position
  available to believers... That although you may see things in the world around us
  that suggest god or that are compatible with god, reason alone cannot create belief
  in a personal god.

  So, my (sincere) question is: What does?

  And don't just say "faith", because that is exactly what I am trying to figure out.
  What makes you sure of something that continues to be illusive if not completely
  invisible to the powers of reason? How does that happen, and what does it feel like?

  [inkling]
• 

  Tired of the Hypocrisy

  My son always makes that argument. There is no proof of God and I tell him a few things that make e believe He must be out there somewhere. He writes web pages and plays and writes music. I tell him to look at his html/shtml code and scramble it. He does and the page is ruined. I have him randomize the muical notes to a song he is playing on his guitar and the song is not the song anymore, it is usually just noise. So I then ask him why they worked before and he said because he designed the page and wrote the song in a way where the outcome would be good.

  I then ask him about the code it takes to create a human being. Our dna is a much more complex code, so why should that be random but even something so simple as html code must be designed and structured by a creative and intelligent person. He sees, but lacks the solid proofs he wants. Hey, I am planting seeds anyway! LOL
• 

  inkling

  Our dna is a much more complex code, so why should that be random but even something so simple as html code must be designed and structured by a creative and intelligent person.

  This argument and the like are, I must admit, compelling on an... intuitive level.

  That is one thing "beyond" reason: intuition.

  Of course intuition, although valuable, can lead us astray.
  Our intuition would tell us that the earth in flat, the sun
  is small, and the stars fall from above the dome of the sky.

  [inkling]
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I am flattered INKLING!

  The Leap of Faith is all there is I am afraid.

  As far as the "proof" for God's existence, I cannot offer you that (well logical/philosophical proofs perhaps but nothing like what a scientist would require). I think believing in God requires a leap of faith. However I do believe that there is enough evidence from which one can reasonably draw a conclusion that God does exist--or not, depending on how you view the evidence! God isn't the only thing we take without evidence. Take Hume's induction problem for example. There are many other examples of things we believe without evidence as we go about our daily lives and are inherent in scientific inquiry that are nonetheless "reasonable".

  When it comes to the the existence of God, the Bible (I hope I don't sound like a Bible thumper) says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but that they have suppressed the truth about God. On the other hand, for those who want to know God (if he is there) he says, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.”

  As for me, I believe God exists. When you look at how incredible our universe and world is...sitting in front of the stars in wonderment...resolving my first planet as a boy with a telescope my Grandfather gifted me..... the complexities of the human body right down to our genetic code....my own son.....I think it is more reasonable to conclude that the results are that of a Creator as opposed to a roll of the dice.

  and what does it feel like?

  This movie quote from Contact (based on the Carl Sagan book which I recommend), made by an atheist character, Ellie Arroway, comes very close, I think:

  I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everybody, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish.

  BurnTheShips
• 

  lonelysheep

  I then ask him about the code it takes to create a human being. Our dna is a much more complex code, so why should that be random but even something so simple as html code must be designed and structured by a creative and intelligent person.

  Nature didn't create HTML. Humans did.

  Nature is "creative and intelligent" in its own right.
  
  So then, nature vs. god would then be what I would address to you if I were in your son's shoes.
• 

  jgnat

  I live with reasonable certainty about most things, but few absolutes. That does not make me agnostic. My certainty about the existence of God comes from direct experience. So I must believe that God exists.

  I am not certain that God is infinitely powerful. There must be limits. Otherwise we would have an all-powerful God with limited compassion.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Nature is "creative and intelligent" in its own right.

  If so, what is the evidence? HTML was undeniably created by an intelligent agent, and it does not self assemble into something meaningful yet nature was not and it can?

  BTS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I am not certain that God is infinitely powerful.

  I think that perhaps this is true in effect. He voluntarily relinquished some of his own power so that we may have ours.

  BTS
• 

  jgnat

  If you really want to blow your mind, burn-the-ships, try reading up on Quantum Mechanics. After the book I just finished, I am pretty convinced that our mind is a quantum computer, able to influence towards several "realities" in our own brain. But please do take the time to read the middle paragraphs, not just the introduction and the conclusion.

  http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Brain-Neuroplasticity-Power-Mental/dp/0060393556
• 

  lonelysheep

  Nature is "creative and intelligent" in its own right.

  If so, what is the evidence? HTML was undeniably created by an intelligent agent, and it does not self assemble into something meaningful yet nature was not and it can?

  BTS

  One would need to believe what is in science text books and then can learn the answers.
  
  Yes, nature can self assemble into something meaningful, something real, even though it was not created by some being. Lives of animals and people prove that to us everyday.