by oompa 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I dont think a priest forgives sin but he acts as an intermediary in the process.
Any practicing Catholics care to give Chatecism lessons today? Right or wrong as far as the Catholics do it...The WT system is about power and abuse and solves nothing for anyone.
Hill
Hi Blk,
Welcome to the Board!
You don't have the story quite right about the issue of JWs and education. I would be the first one to agree with you about how education doesn't make somebody 'better' than somebody else (at least not in the eyes of God). That isn't the point. The point is that the religion is against higher education because they want gullible, uninformed people sitting in the halls. They have an 'issue' with people who have a higher education and/or a career because they reason that it makes them 'less controllable'. Never mind that people who are poorly educated earn less and can contribute less $$. This issue of careers goes hand in hand with the higher education.
This is the problem. The religion sees themselves as a 'clergy class' (they don't admit it but they are) who are deserving of people's monetary contributions. Imagine the nerve??? They don't believe in full time secular work but yet they imagine that somebody who works for a living owes them something. I always believed there was a measure of jealousy or covetousness towards somebody who had a career or a decent job.
I also agree with you that our eyes should be simple, but are theirs??
LHG
I feel like sinning today.
W
BLKBLK13: I don't think that the Elders claim to have the power to forgive or not forgive sins. It's more of a matter of issuing or not issuing punishment. Only God can 4give sins and that pretty much the JW's stance on it.
Yaaaaa...okay, but the point is that the Priest make the person FEEL like their sins are forgiven isn't it? I mean we all know that only God would really know, and maybe you won't know til some judgement day right? Likewise, when you cry your heart out and tell the 3 stooges...I mean loving committee....how sorry you are, they and they alone hold the power to make you FEEL like you are worthless trash who is not and should not be forgiven.
As far as your observations about my depiction of trades for the elders....you do have point, and I certainly do not want to demean or offend ANYONE reading at JWD...(except Scholar). One thing you should keep in mind though is that the education system has changed dramatically since bible times, and is far more available to the average person. WT takes a very strong stand against formal education past what the law DEMANDS....does the Bible do that? NO! And your rich kid analogy does not fit...he was rich, but maybe not educated, maybe not headed for school....he almost had to inherited the money as lotto was not in play then. Jesus did not say, as some have on the GB to "get the hell out of school, and start knocking on doors more ya slacker!" My post is also to remind others that some elders think WAAAYYY to much of themselves.
My last District Convention I will EVER go to had me steaming on this point. The speaker asked after explaining that sex, drugs, parties, and yes FUN go on in college..."What kind of parent would ever intentionally put their children in that type of environment?" All I could think of was "damn, that sounds like high school and my first job!" That HORRIBLE education environment is what you face your entire adolescent and adult life unless you are homeschooled in a cave somewhere! But can you imagine the guilt heaped on loving parents there putting their kids through college? Anyway, I am pissed now, and no, I did not get to go to college, you better get your ass there BLK13.....oompa
I don't think that the Elders claim to have the power to forgive or not forgive sins. It's more of a matter of issuing or not issuing punishment. Only God can 4give sins and that pretty much the JW's stance on it.
As most people who r regs on this site can c I am new here but have been "lurking" 4 a couple of days b/f I decided 2 post and I've noticed that there is this constant criticism of witnesses for not being educated or having lowly, manual labor jobs. And this may need 2 b an entirely seperate post but why the criticism? Many of Gods servants in the bible did not have a history of education or coming from high positions of power or wealth. Isn't that the message the Jesus gave us. To keep our eyes simple. When the young rich guy wanted to know how to b/c one of his followers he told him to get rid of his eartly possessions and follow him. The Disciples were fisherman that's not spectacular. On one hand witnesses r derided for being poor and uneducated but what does that have 2 do w/ being able to shepard the flock? What could college teach about that anyway? Besides alot of people on this site claim to have had their opportunities for higher education stripped away from them due to the society's restrictions and condemnation of this but now these same people claim that w/out a college education they have managed 2 glean things from the bible that the GB couldn't and they know more than the organization entirely. All this was somehow acheived while only using their personal knowledge and non-college traing thinking abilities. Isn't that contradictory? How can u look down on these "poor uneducated" men for being in positions of responsibility and, according to some on this site, not being qualified 4 them since they r just "window washers" w/ merely HS educations but @ the same time w/out any different set of qualifications you can criticize them? As someone still on the inside considering the possiblity of finding my way out I find this so strange.
It's obvious from your post, ie grammar, that you may have indeed self fulfilled that prophecy... With all seriousness, criticizing JW's is justified. They make fun of the "World" for its quest of knowledge. They despise those for pursuing such things. Yet, this inner jealousy is a mear reflection of their own inner disatisfaction and impotence. So yes, how can an under educated man or woman, condemn me for the mistakes that I have made in life, when they can't even adequately live their own? Oh, and the "uneducated" Jesus arguement doesn't wash. Why? Because he should have known ALL things being the Son of God, and was therefore the most educated man on the planet...
It's obvious from your post, ie grammar, that you may have indeed self fulfilled that prophecy... With all seriousness, criticizing JW's is justified. They make fun of the "World" for its quest of knowledge. They despise those for pursuing such things. Yet, this inner jealousy is a mear reflection of their own inner disatisfaction and impotence. So yes, how can an under educated man or woman, condemn me for the mistakes that I have made in life, when they can't even adequately live their own? Oh, and the "uneducated" Jesus arguement doesn't wash. Why? Because he should have known ALL things being the Son of God, and was therefore the most educated man on the planet...
Nothing in my post even alluded to Jesus not be educated I referred to the disciples not being educated and that Jesus advised us to not chase after wealth. The point of what I wrote was that education or financial success have nothing do w/ one's ability to shepard the flock. Maybe, it's an important part of discerning the accuracy of bible "truths" being presented by the society but if u have done something wrong that is plainly against what is in the bible it doesn't take someone w/ a doctorate to realize that or call u out 4 it. But I guess ur comprehension abilities r on the same level as my grammatical skills...:P
Sorry but several of the apostles WERE educated.
Nothing in my post even alluded to Jesus not be educated I referred to the disciples not being educated and that Jesus advised us to not chase after wealth. The point of what I wrote was that education or financial success have nothing do w/ one's ability to shepard the flock. Maybe, it's an important part of discerning the accuracy of bible "truths" being presented by the society but if u have done something wrong that is plainly against what is in the bible it doesn't take someone w/ a doctorate to realize that or call u out 4 it. But I guess ur comprehension abilities r on the same level as my grammatical skills...:P
Yes education has EVERYTHING to do with sheparding the flock. What if a person hears voices, or seeks help for what they perceive is demon attack? Most JW's would tell them to read the bible, whereas an EDUCATED priest would suggest they go seek help through a doctor. In most cases the educated decision is the most accurate. Or, how can a person who is uneducated, works his ass off cleaning toilets, council someone on material possessions? What if the person who seems to have nice things actually makes more money, or simply maintains what they have? How about a pedophilia case? Do we seek professional counsel for the victim, or do we only give spiritual advice? I can guarantee you that 99.9% of priests, who are required to attend higher education, would offer spiritual help, but also suggest real world help.
blkblk: if u have done something wrong that is plainly against what is in the bible it doesn't take someone w/ a doctorate to realize that or call u out 4 it.
Agreed. But do you agree we have an arrangement...NOT in the Bible....that lets three guys disavow your repentant attitude for whatever reason they choose? And can then make it so that member of your own family will be condemned for speaking with you? And that this can even happen to children that we foolishly and unscripturally allow to get baptized in the first place????????????????????????.......oompa
Yes education has EVERYTHING to do with sheparding the flock. What if a person hears voices, or seeks help for what they perceive is demon attack? Most JW's would tell them to read the bible, whereas an EDUCATED priest would suggest they go seek help through a doctor. In most cases the educated decision is the most accurate. Or, how can a person who is uneducated, works his ass off cleaning toilets, council someone on material possessions? What if the person who seems to have nice things actually makes more money, or simply maintains what they have? How about a pedophilia case? Do we seek professional counsel for the victim, or do we only give spiritual advice? I can guarantee you that 99.9% of priests, who are required to attend higher education, would offer spiritual help, but also suggest real world help.
I am starting to realize that u r approaching this from a standpoint of witnesses being uninteligent. U r confusing inteligence w/ education. Why would a person who is uneducated/cleaning toilets automatically be disqualified from counseling someone on material possesions? If that's the case most of the counsel to the congregations given by the apostles in the bible should be disregarded b/c they lacked wealth or secular education. U dont have to go to college 2 be intelligent or to have adequate reasoning abilities and conversly going to college doesn't automatically instill those qualities. My congregation has many college educated elders and members of the congregation. Where I live going to college isn't severly looked down on but I can guarantee u that in the situations u mentioned the college educated elders would be just as unlikely to advise outside help as the poor uneducated ones. God gave us all brains and we don't need college 2 know how 2 use them. My grandparents didn't have the opportunity to go to college and they have plenty of wisdom and can see through BS better than any psychologist. It's just of matter of common sense sometimes. I agree that the Org has the whole judicial thing wrong but this idea that where a man went to school and how much money he has earned in his lifetime is what determines whether he can help or whether he can lead or whether he can shepard goes against everything the Apostles, Jesus, and the entire Bible teaches.
