The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl 73 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AnnOMaly

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but...

    The idea that the Jews deported in year 23 came from Egypt is a DIRECT QUOTE from Josephus. Thus Josephus has to be contradicted here to move the 23rd year deportation from Egypt elsewhere. Here is that direct quote.

    ANT 10.9. the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon. And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews.....,; but the king of Babylon, who brought out the two tribes, (17) placed no other nation in their country, by which means all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years."

    See? We have a direct quote from Josephus claiming a deportation of those in Egypt in year 23 that left the land of Judah desolated for 70 years.

    Josephus DIRECTLY connects year 23 with the expedition against Coele-Syria, and you know Neb was busy in that region for over a decade (cp. Ezek. 29:17-20). The wars against the Ammonites, Moabites and Egypt was said to come after he subdued Coele-Syria. And you also know that Josephus later amends his 70 years figure for the desolation to 50.

  • bennyk

    Dear "Scholar",

    My earlier posts 325 & 326 confirm that I was NOT seriously suggesting Josiah was alive in 605 B.C.E. Post 333 was an attempt to show you that a scriptural reference to people and places can be twisted to "confirm" nonsense. How about some of these:

    ***w22 11/15 p.357 [bracketed material in original]
    The Protestant Reformation, which split professing Christians into two hostile parts, was foretold through the prophet Daniel in these words: "Now when they [true Christians of the dark ages] shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many [professedly Protestant rulers and others] shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them [Protestant leaders] of understanding shall fall, to try them [the true ones], and to purge thenl lot the evil ones], and to make them white, even to the time of the end [1799]."--Daniel 11 : 34, 35.
    The Harp Of God p.230
    398 The most important thing to which all the prophecies point and for which the apostles looked forward has been the second coming of the Lord. It is described by the Prophet as a blessed time. Daniel then says: “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days”. (Daniel 12: 12) The watchers here, without question, are those who were instructed by the Lord to watch for his return. This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at his second appearing. Applying the same rule, then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A. D. brings us to A. D. 1874, at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence is due.
    *** w22 5/15 CHRONOLOGY
    WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. [...]
    Using this same measuring line, beginning with the entry of the children of Israel into Canaan, and counting the full 70 cycles of 50 years each, as clearly indicated by Jehovah's sending of the Jews into Babylon for the full 70 years, it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee, There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.
    The chronology of present truth might be a mere happening if it were not for the repetitions in the two great cycles of 1845 and 2520 years, which take it out of the realm of chance and into that of certainty. If there were only one or two corresponding dates in these cycles, they might possibly be mere coincidences, but where the agreements of dates and events come by the dozens, they cannot possibly be by chance, but must be by the design or plan of the only personal Being capable of such a plan -- Jehovah himself; and the chronology itself must be right. In the passages of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh the agreement of One Or two measurements with the present truth chronology might be accidental, but the correspondency of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan-and at the same time proves the correctness of the chronology.
    The agreement of the chronology with certain measurements of the Tabernacle and the Temple of Ezekiel further stamps the chronology as true.
    It is on the basis of such and so many correspondencies -- in accordance with the soundest laws known to science -- that we affirm that, Scripturally, scientifically, and historically, present-truth chronology is correct beyond a doubt. Its reliability has been abundantly confirmed by the dates and events of 1874, 1914, and 1918. Present-truth chronology is a secure basis on which the consecrated child of God may endeavor to search out things to come. -- 1 Peter 1:11-12; John 16:13.
    ***w23 4/1 p.106
    There was never at any time any intimation to the Pilgrim brethren that they should cease talking about 1925.
    Anyone who has made the statement that such an instruction was sent out has made it without any authority or excuse or cause.
    Our thought is, that 1925 is definiteIy settled by the Scriptures, marking the end of the typical jubilees.

    Their previous chronology having been nonsense, why believe the following:

    *** w90 3/15 p. 15 Cooperating With the Governing Body Today ***
    4 In 1918 the enthroned King Jesus Christ found a small group of Christians who had previously left Christendom’s churches and were busy caring for their Master’s earthly interests. After refining them as with fire, Jesus gave his slaves increased authority in 1919. (Malachi 3:1-4; Luke 19:16-19) He appointed them “over all his belongings.”—Luke 12:42-44.

    Now then, scholar, you did write:

    I have spent many decades studying this subject and have read numerous commentaries and scholarly journals on the subject ...
    I have done the maths and considerd all of the references to the seventy years by Josephus and his summation of matters agrees totally with that of the 'celebrated' WT scholars. As I said; Poor history equals poor chronology so one cannot do accurate chronology unless one gets the history right.

    Now, then: Please explain how Josephus' summation of matters in Apion 1:20 agrees with that of 'celebrated' WT scholars.

    Sincerely, bennyk

  • JCanon

    Hi Doug. (Sorry to hear about your wife's illness. I know this is a life experience you're going through and its different for everyone. I wish you strength and comfort to get through this. My parents are aged and ailing and it certainly reminds of how short life can be and renews our reason for hope in a better world).

    It is not possible for the WTS -- or anyone else for that matter -- to prove which year the Jews returned to Jerusalem following the decree by Cyrus.

    It is not possible to show that this is the event that marked the end of the "70 years of servitude" by the nations listed by Jeremiah.

    Doug, it is porbably not "possible" to prove anything in the ancient past. But we can confirm and examine the various references that survive that are pertinent to the issue. In this case:

    1. Ant. 11.1.1 by Josephus confirms that HIS interpretation of Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled when the "people went off their land" meaning at the time of the last deportation, thus the 70 years are from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. That is the "subjective" chronology.

    2. The VAT4956 contain two date references for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar: one in 568 BCE and one in 511 BCE. The double dating though, explains the reason for the "diary" in the first place, which was just to hide reference to the original chronology. So the most academically correct chronology via the VAT4956 for the true dating for the NB Period dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE. It is only this date that a Bible scholar would be thus interested in comparing with the Biblical timeline. This dating would date year 23 to 525 BCE and thus the 1st of Cyrus is corrected by the VAT4956 to fall in 455 BCE. Since 455 BCE works as the year the "word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem" which is a pivotal date fulfilling the 70 weeks prophecy where the messiah's baptism in 29 CE establish the beginning of this prophecy, you have the OPTIONAL alignment of the Bible's timeline with the VAT4956 confirmed original NB dating. 607 BCE and 587 BCE are considered incompetent dates belonging to the revised timeline.

    So true, no one can CONFIRM 455 BCE as the correct dating for the Jews return from Babylon, but it is the most academically correct dating at this point, and it is the Biblically correct date. Now, I've reporeted on the VAT4956. It's not my fault if people don't understand astronomy enough to know there is no further choice here.

  • JCanon
    The date of the Return indeed is the only possible date to end the seventy year period as descibed by Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra. The other candidate, 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon is impossible for the very simple amongst many others that the Jews were still Babylon at that time and the land was still desolate at that time.

    You make good point, Scholar. However, this is old school and limited. Ezra 6:14,15 confirms two things:

    1) That Darius I died in his sixth year.

    2) That a king called "Artaxerxes" succeeded him that year and helped complete the temple.

    When this was investigated it was discovered "Artaxerxes" was actually the second name for Xerxes and they were the same king. Xerxes claimed he was his own son to avoid an assasination attempt and further conflict with the Athens, which he had destroyed. The Jews liked Xerxes/Artaxerxes so went along with this counterintelligence against the Greeks, but then later the Persians paid off other Greek historians (i.e. Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle) to revise their history and thus the revised Persian-influenced Persian and Greek timelines became "official" in later times. Later, after Christianity, it seems to have been latched onto by Jews to help deny Christ or deflect from when Christ was to arrive. Thus the true date for the fall of Jerusalem and the true date of the Exodus are notoriously manipulated historical events in the academic world, which is only influenced by anti-Biblical academic societies. But we've past that now. Enough astronomical events have been left on the books to completely coordinate and reconstruct the original timeline, a timeline now augmented with advanced RC14 dating confirmation. So there's just no excuse to keep debating the 70 years as far as the absolute dates without addressing Ezra 6:14,15 and the Persian Period revisions.

    YOU can ignore that part of the history if you want, but others of us have corrected the timeline and now see complete harmony between the secular and Biblical timelines.

    Thus, at the end of the day, it is not a matter of anything being at all confusing any more. We know why secular and Biblical dates for the NB Period are discrepant. It's not a mystery any more. Those who pretend there are options still are simply ill informed. I've done my share by explaining how to correct the secular timeline, so that's as much as I can do. If my evidence is not acceptable then that's your choice. But I'm content with the results totally.

    The second thing is this. A lot of the focus on getting the NB Period correct is really to see how that affects modern-day events, such as 1914 or 1992. However, 1914 and 1992 are past dates. Thus whether or not the messiah arrives in 1914 or 1992 are the primary interests in ancient chronology. But it also allows us to retrodate all events based upon modern events. For instance, 1947 fulfills the 70th week jubilee for the Jews and thus can be directly used to date the Exodus to 1386 BCE, because the two events are linked. Likewise, since we know when a 70-week period for the 1st coming ends in 36CE, we can confirm the dating for the entire week, including the year the 70 weeks begin in 455 BCE. The return of the Jews occurs on the 19th jubilee of the week, the Exodus is the 1st jubilee and 1947 is the 49th jubilee. So we can now use modern events to actually correct and compare to the ancient dates now. RC14 dating confirms the timeline along with several specific eclipses.

    So all I can basically say is some of us out here are not experiencing contradiction between the Bible and secular history any more. We've resolved all the contradictions and have archaeological and astronomical and historical evidence in place supporting it. It's one thing to disagree with the conclusions but quite another to pretend there is no possible resolution when in fact it actually has been resolved.

    So maybe I should consider myself lucky I don't have to deal with the contradictions any more. Yeah, exactly. Paint me HAPPY!


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